Feminist Pub IX. Newbies and regulars welcome - pop your cognitive dissonance down outside and have a gin.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Right, thought I'd better start a new pub. I warn you, my knowledge of Roman numerals conks out shortly after this one, so either buffy will have to start the next thread, or we'll have to go Arabic.

Everyone is welcome in - if you want to chat, or just jump in with a question/link/gin, please do. Especially if it's too small for a thread or you don't feel up to thread-starting.

The old thread has, at my count, about 9 posts to go, and it was here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2126791-Feminist-Pub-VIII-not-as-prolific-as-the-Swaggerers-but-there-are-cushions-and-consciousness?

We were just chatting about feministy light reading, and will doubtless meander onto other topics shortly.

Or Bluebells Buffy, which would be lovely. :o

Glad to hear about your dad. But tough he's finding it a shock. My dad would be the same, I can imagine.

Your garden plans sound lovely. I really doubt it's buttercup, though (do they have bulbs?!).

I have a ridiculously over-ambitious garden that's all in pots, and I probably need to give plants away to people as I can't reasonably move it all. But I am keeping the good bits. I've finally got rocket all established in a big pot, so I can keep picking it all summer for salads.

Our plum tree looks ill, but our blackberry and strawberries look fine. The coriander is enormous, and we have a raspberry jungle. :)

Whew, caught up. I'm still on holiday, so feeling a bit out of touch. I'm also trying to stay calm and relaxed so basically avoiding most threads. Have managed tangential support in the mansplaining situ by offering my completely unsanctioned by men position.

Yay Capt your job sounds very positive and well-timed.

LRD your life sounds so exciting right now, but you know the Chinese curse, about interesting times ha ha. I had some difficulties with MH and while I wouldn't say I'm cured, I do know that every loop is easier. And also my therapist said intelligent women living in patriarchy would always be at risk of.depression, because of the patriarchy, which sounds a bit glum but I do find it reassuring to think that I'm responding to my world like a sane person would. And also, believing I should not feel a certain way is not only "about" the depression, it's the definition of my problem. For me, acceptance of negative feelings is somehow the key to good MH even during sad and stressful times . I would say, yes it's all going to be thrilling and full-on and it's fine not to 100% enjoy it all the time, having a tough week or a black afternoon doesn't mean anything except that you are properly functioning person.

Ooh a gardening chat. Our damson tree at our allotment has fruit on it for the first time since we've had it (6 yrs).So that was exciting. Peas got destroyed by slugs whilst we were away a few weeks ago. And I'm currently fighting the same fight for the swedes. Beans doing great and our first crop of onions also great.

My Dad rang up tonight and told me his ex is back on the scene. This ex left him 11 yrs ago for an alcoholic mate of his. We are pretty certain that she is an alcoholic too. Anyway it was pretty acrimonious at the time. Money was owed and not replayed. Then my Dad had a serious accident falling down the stairs whilst they were supposedly drinking champagne making up. And after that we hardly heard from her again. Anyway it transpires that this mate of his is an abusive wankbadger (thanks LRD) and has beaten her up several times and drained her of all her money (some of which she owed my Dad). So my Dad is now supporting her, has given her a bed and is trying to find her a flat. So I'm alternating between wanting to give him a good shake whilst shouting WTF do you think you are doing and feeling for this woman because this is the second long term abusive relationship she's been in that I know of (her ex-husband was a gem...not).

Anyway I'm off oop north to see the parents next weekend and wondered if was appropriate to give her information about The Freedom Programme, Women's Aid, Right for Women etc or whether I should just stay out of it? And why do I suddenly feel like the parent to my Dad in that I can just see this situation being a car crash waiting to happen? Dear God he's 74. He should know better! I think I'm just going to say to him not to give anything that he can't afford to lose and I don't just mean money.

And welcome back Outself. Hope you had a lovely holiday

Really interesting point about female depression and patriarchy, OutsSelf - your counsellor sounds amazing!

Yes she does!

I've missed you, outself! I have my rose in the car and it makes me smile on every journey.

Outself

"And also my therapist said intelligent women living in patriarchy would always be at risk of.depression, because of the patriarchy, "

I want your therapist!

I have posted here before about finding a feminist therapist.

I agree. I find it easier to manage things while thinking "this is hard, it's worth doing, but it is hard" than "la la la la everything is fine what is your problem" (especially because my self-trashing interior monologue always turns the latter into "so why are you struggling? IT's because your shit")

This is why I have no faith in mainstream relationship counselling. I feel like I want a counsellor who can say "Ok I get what your project is: you want to subvert millions of years of patriarchal conditioning and live in a house with a man you love and your collective children while not being at the bottom of a chute of shit. This will be tricky, so let's work on it". However - I doubt that telling DP "Oh yes, relationship counselling, but only with a feminist relationship counsellor" will go down very well. (even if, in theory, he is part of the same project - equality. In theory. in theory)

Good morning all

I, too, like that thought about depression in intelligent women being a natural response to the patriarchy. I mean, it's tragic that it happens, and indeed that we have a patriarchy. But comforting that it's "them", not "us", as it were.

Anyhoo, I wandered in here to present you all with my morning gripe.

I am a person who is fond of tattoos. And some piercings - a full face of metal doesn't appeal to me but I have several holes in my ears and once upon a time had my nose pierced too. This was shortly after I met DH, who doesn't like piercings. Or tattoos. Or technicolour hair.

When I met him, I had purple hair, one tattoo and got nose pierced soon into our relationship. So he knew what he was letting himself in for.

But even though he never made a fuss aside from pulling A Face when I came home with my pierced nose, I knew he didn't like it, and about a year into our relationship I took out my nose ring and also went down to one earring in each ear. At the time I convinced myself I wasn't doing it for him, but because I was "growing up".

I got another tattoo about 4 years later, and over the last couple of years I've had my first tattoo, which was crap, lasered off and a significantly larger cover-up done. He sulked for days after I had each done, but not said anything negative ever again once he had "got over it" on each occasion.

My mother is completely hysterical (if you'll forgive my use of the word) about my tattoos, cried buckets after each one ("how could you do this to me!?!" full-on weeping), won't be seen in public with me if they are showing, her biggest fear in life is that her extended family will find out about them and she was also very uncomfortable about being seen in public with me when I had purple hair and facial piercings.

If it weren't for DH and DM, I would have a full back piece (I believe the human back is a fabulous canvas and just asking to be filled) and probably at least a half-sleeve on each arm. As it is, to avoid their negative responses, I have only two small(ish) tattoos.

But it makes me so sad that the two people in this world (DDs aside) who are supposed to love and accept me the most are the two who make me feel the most uncomfortable about being myself.

Now that I'm 40 and ancient and probably due a mid-life crisis, I am feeling a large amount of Fuck Them. At work we aren't allowed any jewellery for biosecurity reasons and I'm too lazy to take it off every day so haven't worn any for 5 years. But now I'm out of the lab and can wear jewellery full-time again, I want to re-pierce my nose. I've been planning this for about 2 years now. I've mentioned it to DH a couple of times, and again this morning. He just made A Face and didn't say anything.

I also want to get the tattoo that was crap and lasered off done again, but right this time. It was an image from a children's book that was my favourite as a child (I still have it) and means a lot to me. Sadly the "artist" I chose was an incompetent wanker so he fucked it up completely, but I still love the image and want it as a tattoo 20 years later! So I'm planning to have that done once I finish my PhD.

But I just feel cold inside at the reaction I'm going to get from DH (and DM if I ever fail to hide it efficiently) for both the piercing and the tattoo.

Sorry, that turned into an epic rant. But uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh! Why do I let these two people dictate what I do with my own body? Why do I let myself care more about their feelings than my own? And it just ruins the joy these things should bring me knowing that I'm going to have to face such a negative reaction from them. I really don't think DH would ever consider leaving me because of a tattoo, but I hate that sad and hurt looks he gets, as if I stabbed him in the heart with the tattoo gun.

Go for it with the tattoo Annie! I know how you feel though about how you convince yourself you are doing it because you are growing up. I had a bf who insisted on taking me clothes shopping for work clothes to Evans. I was 22. I convinced myself it was part of growing up. When in fact it is quite controlling behaviour on the part of the other person (especially the sulking) and when that person is supposed to love you it is really difficult.

I've never set foot in Evans again because of that!

You sound great btw Annie.

And yy to feminist counsellors. We need more of them.

Welcome back, outself. I'll add to the chorus admiring your therapist.

I'm way too squeamish for tattoos and piercings, but I'd say go for it. Actually, I am really Not Good with piercings. My mum loaded me up with horror stories about earrings catching and ripping your ears, and I can't get them out of my head. So, if my partner had a piercing, in theory I should find it offputting. But it's happened, and I didn't think 'wow, how amazing!' but I also didn't feel hurt they'd done it or anything like that. And I do think it is a bit dodgy to feel that way about someone else's body, really.

I know DH isn't trying to be controlling, and the sulking is the least worst option he feels he can take because he really hates tattoos, so I don't think he could just absolutely suck it up and pretend to be happy for me. He just needs his time to come to terms with it.

But I am very annoyed at myself that I care so much what they think.

Thank you scallops (which are not great, btw) - you too sound awesome.

I'm with you on the squeamishness about piercings catching, LRD. Ears/noses have never bothered me but I'd be very nervous about having anything that generally lives under clothing pierced for much the same reason.

I will be getting the tattoo, fear not. But I hate having this black cloud of DH's reaction hanging over what should be a very exciting prospect.

Well, in that case, you'll have to let us make a fuss of you when you get it, and you'll have to post a picture.

Attached is the original picture of the tattoo I want, and also the result of letting a wankbadger tattoo it on me. And that was after I had a decent artist do all she could to fix it up. It always looked like a blue palm tree .

Final image is the cover-up I have now. So I want to put the bird on my left shoulder and have all kinds of cool vines and more flowers connecting the two.

I like tattoos, I always think they show such a clear sense of identity/ commitment and admire that. My sister has some, she's a dancer so it could really affect her work, but she did it anyway. Go her, and go you Annie

My therapist was a male psychotherapist whose specialism was working with (predominantly male) survivors of male sexual violence. So he was really in touch with the effects of patriarchal masculinity. His practice partner was with a woman whose specialism was working with women with disordered eating. So to me, you just can't work with those issues without being really aware of gender politics. If you are looking for feminist therapists, people working directly on the issues that arise in the context of patriarchal masculinities/ femininities is probably the way to vet them?

Oh I love that tattoo as it is now. And I'm a bit like LRD all squeamish and not into tattoos. Although I am probably more open to the idea now (at 43) than I was 20 yrs ago, bizarrely. A friend of mine has a fabulous tattoo across her back so I understand your thoughts on the back being a canvas.

And I didn't mean to suggest your husband was intending to be controlling, apologies! After I'd written it I thought that didn't really come out how I meant! I think we can all exhibit controlling behaviour without anything more sinister attached to it. Your husband really doesn't like tattoos and you've compromised on that. But it is a part of who you are so it is difficult. I think that's part of the problem with living with someone else. You do change and compromise who you are. If my marriage fails for whatever reason I won't live with anyone again. At the moment the balance is still in favour of us staying together.

Gosh that sounds a bit cold and clinical like some market research: Dear scallops we have found in favour of you staying in your relationship by a 70/30% split.

Anyway rambling now. Must get back to a job application. It's got to be submitted by midnight and I've got about 2/3rds to do!

Ooh, the bird is pretty.

I think lots of tattoo designs are lovely - I just couldn't do it!

Good luck with the job app scallops!

Thanks LRD. It's a bit of a step up from what I do currently so I'm being careful & thorough with the application and hoping I can wing the interview. Gulp!

No, I didn't read it that you meant he was being deliberately controlling, scallops. But I felt a need for a "not my Nigel" response anyway.

I'm absolutely with you on having decided that, even though I don't predict a split, if things end between DH and I, there will not, under any circumstances, be anyone else. I'd love to live my own life, free of having to compromise even for someone I love very much.