Why has the trans/sex/gender debate emerged at this moment?

[UptheChimney]

That's it: what is at stake that this argument/attack on feminists from trans people has emerged at this moment?

As a late 70s feminist, my experience of trans issues was that there was huge discrimination for those who didn't fit into heteronormativity, and I could see how lesbian & gay people had much in common with trans people. And with feminists.

Solidaritry wasn't uniform: while lesbian feminism was very strong, gay men were pretty misogynist and elements of the male gay movement still are the non-monogamous etc etc versions of "gay lifestyles" are pretty masculinist in a very unreconstructed way: the idea that men are driven by sex, and should have the freedom to have sex when/where/whatever. But that's another thread.

So what are the views on why this battle between trans people and some feminists? Is it another "What about teh menz?" Is it because women are expected simply to care about everyone else?

Ideas? Views?

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Loved everything you said, tanacot. I'd be surprised if anyone found it offensive. Feminism needs all perspectives.

[LurcioAgain]

Just donated - thanks for the number!

Tanacot - don't go. You are absolutely right. If a set of ideas is massively important to everyone's lives, people from all sorts of backgrounds, then we should all be trying our damndest to express them in everyday language. (And, as someone pointed out on another thread, often the refusal to even try indicates not that the ideas are intrinsically complicated, but that the person writing the "academic spiel" is trying to hide the fact that the emperor has no clothes).

[ballsballsballs]

Never mind Reclaim the Night, round here we haven't reclaimed the day. This.

Tanacot another one here saying you have an amazing way with words. I really enjoyed your posts.

When I first started on MN I used the phrase 'cis privilege' and got my arse handed to me. I've done a lot of reading on here since and have com to see the radfem position in the debate. The idea of a 'cotton ceiling' repulsed me and crystallised what some activists really think about women. I've become much more radicalised as a result of these threads which isn't a bad thing.

I looked at some transactivists sites a while ago and was shocked at the hatred: 'die cis scum' FFS.

[ballsballsballs]

com = come

[Tanacot]

Sorry. That was really touchy. I'm so used to being told I am anti-intellectual and playing Oppression Olympics for mentioning things like that and I fast-forwarded on you, which is just not fair of me at all and now I've made it all about me. Sorry. Can we forget.

On the subject of a fourth wave, it would be great to get some of these ideas out to tumblr etc because I only see gender theory and choice/individualism stuff out there. I mean I don't think getting into massive wanks and failz is gonna help but just like, embedding videos like that Gail Hines one and linking to that amazing wordpress with all those books on (I have been reading like a maniac!). Was thinking about 5 point memes etc, but then I wonder whether all that stuff actually diffuses energy and flattens it all into something, idk, consumable trivia like My Game of Thrones Name or whatever. It's hard to know.

My generation can recognise it on tv but not so much in real life, and there's no obvious action to take, anyway. I think a lot of people, well, you think "yes and so... what?" I mean, it's not enough to figure out you're being shat on. You also need some clue on what to do about it. That's something that is missing, somehow, from the conversation I see. But I know that it hasn't always been -- I know that people set up shelters and changed laws etc in the past.

[MontyGlee]

As if anyone was in any doubt, I agree with Tanacot; I was being very rude when i said it - and I apologise - but there is a heirarchy within feminism with some people feeling they 'own' the issue; they sigh with annoyance when you state opinions based on emotions and reflection rather than several decades of doctrinal study and they want to have final approval over everything. Their obsession actually excludes them from a normal society that can't relate to them. Feminism needs a ground swell of common support, but I read a thread somewhere a few days ago where two '70s' veterans detail their annoyance with third wavers.

[Tanacot]

And thanks for being so nice to me.

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

I mean I don't think getting into massive wanks and failz is gonna help but just like, embedding videos like that Gail Hines one and linking to that amazing wordpress with all those books on (I have been reading like a maniac!). Was thinking about 5 point memes etc, but then I wonder whether all that stuff actually diffuses energy and flattens it all into something, idk, consumable trivia like My Game of Thrones Name or whatever.

I don't know what a 5 point meme is but I think every single thing we can do is great. Get feminism/your point of view out there! Spread the ideas!

[FloraFox]

tanacot your post on the other thread about how people on tumblr think about issues was so perceptive and illuminating. I hope you stick around.

monty has that been your experience on FWR?

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

Tanacot - I know exactly what you mean.

[CrotchMaven]

Tanacot, please stay. I love the way you write, not to mention your insight.

All I'm saying is the language and preoccupations (deconstructing this and Lacan that) has got nowt to do with me or my life here and it hasn't.

I think this is what I've been trying to say on other threads, but not as clearly. So, thank you.

[DoctorTwo]

Tanacot, you say anti intellectual like it's a bad thing. :o You have to stay, you write so beautifully.

[CrotchMaven]

Buffy! See, I'm not alone. You up for the challenge?

[PetulaGordino]

if i've understood correctly buffy, in your work you're trying to bridge the gap between what tanacot's talking about and the traditional world of academia. or at least identify and describe the gap?

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

I think what you are doing is important Buffy. (and others I'm sure)

But it doesn't feel like something I can positively engage with. I like having a campaign to stand behind and write letters and badger mps. There's a few great feminist ones going at the moment but right now I'm thinking what's next? Keep the momentum up keep pushing keep showing that there are solutions really quite simple ones...

Maybe I am being all youthful optimist, but if there is a ground swell of 'ordinary' women next to the academics, haven't we got a better chance of actually changing the way people think?

My dd1 has already started school I want it to be different for her.

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

(and I really do genuinely think your work is awesome Buffy - I hope that comes across!)

[almondcakes]

TeWi, what campaign would you like to see running in the UK for women and/or girls at the moment?

[PetulaGordino]

yes, i don't think the two are mutually exclusive at all. and as you say feminist academics find themselves in a world that is extremely hostile, in a different way perhaps to the world that tanacot describes, but part of the same problem

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

Almond, that's where I'm pausing at the moment. At the moment I am thinking about the way boys and girls are segregated in schools - not single sex schools, or bathrooms. But different uniform codes, different sports options etc (ever noticed boys are offered sports they could earn a living at in the future and girls are offered rounders?)

Start at the beginning. Where children are socialised that girls and boys should be treated differently at school with different expectations.

But it's not fully formed at all. Just swirling around. Also need to look at what others are doing!

[TeWiSavesTheDay]

Also, the other thing that is making me pause is that I want to be sure I've got my theory - what I believe right. I don't want to do something half thought out.