Why has the trans/sex/gender debate emerged at this moment?

[UptheChimney]

That's it: what is at stake that this argument/attack on feminists from trans people has emerged at this moment?

As a late 70s feminist, my experience of trans issues was that there was huge discrimination for those who didn't fit into heteronormativity, and I could see how lesbian & gay people had much in common with trans people. And with feminists.

Solidaritry wasn't uniform: while lesbian feminism was very strong, gay men were pretty misogynist and elements of the male gay movement still are the non-monogamous etc etc versions of "gay lifestyles" are pretty masculinist in a very unreconstructed way: the idea that men are driven by sex, and should have the freedom to have sex when/where/whatever. But that's another thread.

So what are the views on why this battle between trans people and some feminists? Is it another "What about teh menz?" Is it because women are expected simply to care about everyone else?

Ideas? Views?

I think you're right.

One thing that holds me back is that I'm not at school, and I think it has to be led by young people. But it seems an urgent problem to me and I don't know what to do.

Sometimes maybe the distinction between academic and ordinary is overblown. Like I am a single parent who has survived an abusive relationship. I work with grassroots organisations which support women in my professional capacity. I face the dominant male culture every time I enter a staff meeting with my predominantly male colleagues. I stand up in front of 200 people and talk about women's position.

It may not change the world, and you are right, Tewi, the solution is dialogue between different groups of women, not barriers. But that requires a collective effort, it requires Buffy reshaping traditional ways of seeing, allied with grassroots campaigning; it requires lobbying Parliament allied with those personal acts of courage where you say enough of this life, let me find my own path. There is not one thing which will make the world a better place for our daughter's, but all of it; not one person, but many. For me personally, it is the simple act of being a single, working mother in a male-dominated environment and asserting my right to be there and to try, just try, to change the script a bit. It is a different world from a woman in different social circumstances, but I don't think it is an ivory tower. At least, not my little corner.

Not sure if that makes sense.

Sorry, I am about a page behind as it took so long to type that out, and realise people have kind of made similar points.

I really have no idea why we are surprised that children reach secondary make stereotypical career choices when there is so much focus on perceived gender differences in primary.

Xpost with you romey - you sound like a brilliant rolemodel.

my dp is a teacher in a boys' secondary school. from what he has reported, it is unbelievably depressing how much sexist crap they have absorbed by the time they reach year 7. he works hard to challenge it (and to an extent they do listen to him because he is a male teacher ), but it's an uphill battle when the messages they are getting elsehwere reinforce the sexist crap

For Buffy (in the absence of a 'good egg' picture)

Thank you Tewi, I think I am looking for my place in this world, having failed at being a good daughter and doubly at being a wife! Maybe that is why I sound like I am justifying myself, I didn't mean to.

My dd and her female friends know what sexism means and they discuss examples of it. I think part of it is then being assertive enough to challenge inequality, and also, while I am mentioning DD, not only see it as a female issue, but something men take responsibility for too. My DD is ten, so not yet at the stage where peer pressure has shifted to having a boyfriend and how you look. But looking back at when I was ten, I thought boys and girls had equal chances. It would not even have entered my head as an issue. I am not sure if that means we are going forward or backwards though.

I went to an all girl's secondary so I don't think I really got it until I left university (and was pregnant by then so...)

I find it very hard to know whether I should be making DD aware that some rules are unfair, or boosting her confidence as much as possible (which makes it difficult to point out things that will disadvantage her?) eldest is 5 so still in the confidence stage I think. But that will change over time. And I have a boy, for whom I need to kill 'man up' or risk his mental health and ability to empathize with others.

That is a bit of a brain dump and also really off-topic, sorry everyone.

I'm not sure if someone mentioned this already but Women's Aid is being attacked on twitter by trans activists included former LibDem councillor Sarah Brown. WA has released this statement:

www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-press-information.asp?itemid=3283&itemTitle=Statement+on+the+Women%27s+Aid+Transgender+and+Transsexual+Equality+Policies+and+Procedures&section=0001000100150001&preview=1

Anyone with any experience of women's shelters knows the lengths men will take to access shelters.

absolutely kim - it's a (convenient for some) distraction from the really important stuff

Buffy, I promised that I would try and swerve, but I can't really sit on my hands.

My research is filtered through the worldview of an educated white female. But because of philosophical writings, I am aware of this problem

You are aware because of philosophical writings?

I want to do the and thing, but mostly I want to do the . Please tell me you are aware of your filter for other reasons... Or have I misunderstood again?

I dunno, by listening to other people, women in particular. MN is brilliant for that, I think. And granted, had some experiences that led me to do some serious soul searching that perhaps slightly knocked me off my middle class white woman perch.

I think perhaps I was lucky in a way I had never considered - my mum's family is very working class and my dad's very middle. I think I learned very early on about my privileges and just grew up knowing them and the filters that accompany.

Buffy, I'm not having a go. I only ask to understand. I think I do a little more tonight, so thank you.

That is a really good question (typing slowly again, I mean the point about whether privilege was a concept which came through reading). I think my inclination of having privilege being white and educated came at school from having a Muslim friend whose sister was going into an arranged marriage. That was a fairly stark realisation that the opportunity I had for further education was not an option for her. My friend wanted to continue her education, but was not sure if she would be able to (she didn't).

But I don't know how I would have given voice to that recognition as a teenager. But reflecting on it, I think I was more aware that I had opportunities because of my cultural background than I was that I faced barriers because of my sex. Definitely.

That's really interesting, Crotch. I am similar but flipped - posh mum, working class dad. Not that I can say I have strong insight into others though tbh.

So I think one reason I’m so troubled by the trans narrative being incontestible is that I recognise so much of it, personally. I was told I wanted to be a boy, that I was really a boy, over and over and over as a child. It was absolutely ENDLESS, though my parents never did it and were completely fine with me as I was. But everyone else had a big problem with me. Constant drama! I have such sympathy for the experience of being just wrong-fitting and not doing it on purpose at all.

And I remember telling a friend in infant school that I really was a boy and there had been a mistake, because that seemed like it must be the answer to all this ruckus. But my mother insisted that the things I liked were girl things, because I, a girl, was doing them. A gift! That belief really saved me. I feel obliged to pass that on. I can't agree that that be taken away from other girls.

When I reached puberty and was still, intractably, both myself and female, I was told I was mad and put in a special school away from other people. And I accepted it for ages - I internalised the belief that I was a very broken, wrong person, though I never hurt any body in my life or 'acted out' or even shouted or anything. I just existed, implacably at odds, in trousers and short hair, fiddling about on my own with a computer. I guess there are only two options for difference: defiance or madness. Criminal or disabled.

It was really only a few years ago, when I figured out a way to work from home that I started thinking... maybe I'm not actually that mad? I mean, there seemed to be no evidence at all. I seem to function perfectly well: I’m not at all depressed, I'm clean and tidy in my person and my house, I work full time, have plenty of friends and a happy relationship, exercise daily, cook from scratch, learn new languages, make art, sing opera, write, knit, volunteer, am a 24/7 carer, get on with my family, do my duty, vote, obey the law, pick up litter, donate, eat my vegetables, recycle, strengthen my core, tap dance… I mean, what more do they want from me, really! I realise now that on some level I relentlessly accumulate petty accomplishments thinking that they will absolve me, hanging them on my objectionable self like a wig and heels, seeing them like credit chips I can exchange for acceptance, though it is obvious that I cannot and they will not. It’s not the answer because I am not the problem.

My brother, who is strikingly similar to me in terms of personality (everyone comments on it), is a fulfilled and highly successful mathematician and it took me until my thirties to realise that really I’m probably not broken, I’m just Shakespeare’s sister.

There are so many "I"s in this post. I feel compelled now to add: I'm sorry!