Why has the trans/sex/gender debate emerged at this moment?

[UptheChimney]

That's it: what is at stake that this argument/attack on feminists from trans people has emerged at this moment?

As a late 70s feminist, my experience of trans issues was that there was huge discrimination for those who didn't fit into heteronormativity, and I could see how lesbian & gay people had much in common with trans people. And with feminists.

Solidaritry wasn't uniform: while lesbian feminism was very strong, gay men were pretty misogynist and elements of the male gay movement still are the non-monogamous etc etc versions of "gay lifestyles" are pretty masculinist in a very unreconstructed way: the idea that men are driven by sex, and should have the freedom to have sex when/where/whatever. But that's another thread.

So what are the views on why this battle between trans people and some feminists? Is it another "What about teh menz?" Is it because women are expected simply to care about everyone else?

Ideas? Views?

[ICanHearYou]

Monty you are overcomplicating it, it is not JUST about socialisation, it is about the concept of thinking 'like a woman' or dressing 'like a woman'

To accept that, you have to accept that women think, act and dress in a certain way.

[allhailqueenmab]

"You seriously think that, in the UK, women as a class face a tougher time than trans women? You're off your rocker."

This isn't what it is about. It's too simplistic - it isn't about a hierarchy of oppression, in which the more miserable you are being made by society, the more you have the right to order everyone else about.

1. Do I think that bodies which are biologically male should be allowed to wear what they want including dresses and feminine make up and not suffer for it? - yes, absolutely
   

1. Do I think that the owners of such bodies get to co-opt feminism and womanhood? - no, because that is making women and their sex instrumental to other people's sense of self, rather than primarily human beings in their own right
   

Are people like this trying to co opt feminism and womanhood, rather than just trying to get by and have a job and a life in the persona they feel comfortable with? - apparently so. I don't know the relative numbers of each. This is the bit that a lot of mn-ers are only just learning. It seems obvious that you are a heartless bastard if you deny 1. but its conflation with 2, and the smuggling of 2 under the radar, is what needs to be looked at

[allhailqueenmab]

ha ha ha Buffy, our numbered paragraph posts cross posted. I should have used "a" and "b"!

[allhailqueenmab]

We have been spending too much time together. I am off to the pram boards to widen my vernacular.

[MontyGlee]

Isn't that a problem in inherrently looking at invididuals as a member of a class of people: their experience may not remotely be that of the average. I'd have said it was treating everyone by what's true of the whole that is over-simplistic.

I'm curious about feminists not being responsible for the system - the system is society and we're all members of that and all complicit to greater or lesser extents. I never feel that I'm able to contract out of things I don't like. I will certainly stand up and say what I think is wrong and what could be better - but I can't really deny ownership as if I am other

[MontyGlee]

Thank you Buffy and Queen Mab.

[Dervel]

I may be wide of the mark on this one here, and I abhor reducing people down to statistics however running the numbers trans people make up a fraction of percent of the population, women make up half.

That is not to say we shouldn't care about all people, but I'm not sure I feel feminism dedicating resources to this is a wise use of time and energy.

I am just beginning to read around a central area of contention re: the difference between men and women being biologically innate vs socialised. I am beginning to see why there is a problem. I'm not sure where I stand on that debate, but I don't think being committed to ether side is the price of admission to a belief nobody should be oppressed.

[ArcheryAnnie]

Just saw this on twitter:

Women's Aid, who operate domestic violence services for women and children, have in their recruitment guidelines that - bearing in mind that their entire purpose is to help women who have endured violence from male-bodied people* - only trans women who have a Gender Reassignment Certificate will be employed.

So, they are cool with employing trans women who have transitioned. That makes them trans-inclusive, right? No. They are horrible, horrible transphobes, who should be ashamed of their refusal to employ any and all trans women, whether they still possesses a penis or not. twitter.com/auntysarah/status/486492840206540801/photo/1

(Surprise, it's Sarah Brown, everybody's favourite hypocrite.)

This is why we have to stand up.




*and sure, some women are violent, and there are probably some trans men who are DV perps, although I've never heard of any, but if you seriously try to claim DV isn't largely perpetrated by male-bodied people, then you are a troll.

[MontyGlee]

I suppose a lot of people's views will depend on the finer detail of what they believe feminism is. If your view is that gender is entirely a construct and those divisions should be broken down until we have gender neutrality, then where's the place in that for transgenders? However, if you're basically ok with the social definition of a woman's character, but want xyz iro that, then trans is just another individual to benefit from an equal and tolerant society.

For my own part, radical feminism confuses me because there's this celebration and activism on the part of women and yet it believes that women are basically an invented means of controlling the reproducing sex. I'm not sure I'll ever get my head around that. I can see why transgenders threaten that doctrine though - especially militant trans-women.

[ArcheryAnnie]

Trans activists and "allies" are now targetting Womens Aid on twitter, trying to stop people donating to them.

The Women's Aid online donation page is here: www.womensaid.org.uk/page.asp?section=0001000100070001&itemTitle=Donate+now

They also have a really easy way to donate £3 - just text ACT to 70300. That's what I've just done.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Anyone who should do be doing that job and who cares enough about women and their experiences would not want to trigger an abused woman. And would not insist on upsetting them just to prove a point.

just texted, thank you for that archery

[BriarRainbowshimmer]

Telling people to stop donating to Women's Aid? That's just evil. Or completely self-centered at best.

[WhosLookingAfterCourtney]

I've just donated too.

How can transactivists claim to have the moral high ground when they use this kind of tactic?

[Beachcomber]

I don't think it has emerged now as such, more that the ante is being upped.

It was already under radical feminists radar in the late 70s when Janice Raymond wrote "The Transsexual Empire" and also in Mary Daly's work.

But now it is hitting mainstream feminism. No doubt partly fuelled by what happened over Radfem 2012 and of course with the 2004 Gender Recognition Act. (With similar happening in the US)

It is a shame IMO that vocal transactivism is going after feminism in this way and I think everyone needs to have a bit of a think about why that is and why it is happening. My opinion is that transactivism is being used by patriarchal society as an antiwomen Trojan horse.

Certain radical feminists predicted that things would get out of hand and now they have. For me it is a sign of the times and a mix of the anti feminist backlash combined with various factors including neo-liberalism, ultra consumerism, the cult of individualism, Queer Theory, academic feminism, social media, the fashion industry, the proliferation of cosmetic surgery, the third wave, intersectionality, etc. Which is not to say that all of the above are bad or to be binned but that they work together and have come together to produce the result we now see.

[Beachcomber]

Calls have been made (and supported) by third wavers to boycott Reclaim The Night marches too because they don't extend a specific special invitation to transwomen (even though they don't actually exclude transwomen). This is the sort of thing that gets me and it is largely fuelled by born women who selfidentify as feminists. Yikes!

[MontyGlee]

It's ridiculous. This is clearly a case where very selective recruiting should be allowed and to try and interrupt funding is morally wrong.

[AlistairSim]

Just donated too, thanks for the head's up.