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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist Pub VII - Chat, questions, random thoughts too small for a thread ...

999 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/05/2014 18:37

Just setting this up while we finish off the last few posts on the old thread. Come in and pull up a bar stool!

Smile
OP posts:
CailinDana · 17/06/2014 15:38

Sorry Brid, what's a language problem?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 17/06/2014 15:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 15:52

Oh, the TERF thing? It's not a language problem it's a philosophical one. Some (if not all) transwomen see gender as a thing in itself - you can be a "woman" simply by identifying as one and playing that gender role by wearing "feminine" clothes, speaking in a "feminine" way. So they argue that by identifying as women they are women, and so should be treated as such, and given access to women-only spaces, such as dressing rooms and even rape crisis centres. For some trans activists, this extends to saying that lesbians should be sexually attracted to transwomen and have sex with them even if that transwoman has a penis.

DenzelWashington · 17/06/2014 15:56

I agree it isn't a language problem. It is an attempt by one group to impose their gender beliefs on-well, I was going to say 'everyone else' but really I mean 'on women'.

UptoapointLordCopper · 17/06/2014 15:56

Cailin In The Subjection of Women JS Mill did put forward the idea that the subjection of women is a legacy(?) of domination by force and therefore wrong, since in his view we have more or less in other areas of life denounced the domination of force, but have left this one last bastion.

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 16:05

That's entirely what I believe Uptoapoint. Everything to do with society revolves around power relationships and the fact that humans are competitive and will compete to be powerful and in charge of resources. Men evolved greater physical strength than women which gave them an automatic advantage. Over time as societies grew they exploited this advantage and society was built around a male viewpoint and male needs. The guff about men being morally and intellectually superior only came afterwards as a justification for that fact that men can, will and do rape and murder women, and women know that and so keep schtum in order to survive.

Threatening someone's survival goes to that person's very core. In most cases, people will do literally anything to survive (or to protect their children's survival - tying women and children closely together is a good tactic, as it give another source of threat). Once you have a whole group in fear for their survival they will be incredibly compliant. All research supports this. The oppressed people will even control their fellow oppressed, as any challenge to the oppressors is seen as a threat to their own survival.

StormyBrid · 17/06/2014 16:14

It's obviously a philosophical point that won't fit well in my brain then. I'm less stereotypically feminine than any of the MtoF trans people I've ever met. And I'm fanned certain they weren't more female than I am.

I shared a bathroom with an MtoF trans person once. It was at a party, we were having a good chat in the queue for the loo. When it was my turn I motioned for her to come too if she was comfortable to do so, and explained that one reason women often go to the loo in pairs is it's faster (no waiting around for the previous person to hoick everything back into place and so on). The one thing that stumped me was when, after I'd finished, she asked "Is that how all women wipe?" I haven't the foggiest, I'm not all women!

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 16:14

I think once you understand the threat thing everything else makes sense. Why women trauma bond to men and put up with horrendous treatment, why women control each other and side with men over other women, why it's in men's vested interest to prevent women from congregating and talking (because they will realise that the threat can be mitigated, and when that happens, the power disappears), why men are threatened by lesbians (again, if women can exist without men, their power disappears, as the threat disappears). And so on.

kim147 · 17/06/2014 16:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 17/06/2014 16:21

Gosh, I've never shared a cubicle on going to the loo with a friend.

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 16:25

Nor have I Bill, I can't even wee in front of DH.

StormyBrid · 17/06/2014 16:26

Sharing a cubicle would be a squeeze. If it's a normal bathroom in a house there's plenty of room. I realise not everyone does this regardless!

OutsSelf · 17/06/2014 19:47

Oh, to skip back a few posts, it's my experience that the physical threat from men is socially constructed to an extreme degree. We talked about it on the female violence Beyonce thread a bit. Short story version: yes the average man is stronger than the average woman. But explosive muscular strength is not the deciding factor in a fight (I'm a fighter); how you organise your body is; and the sort of damage that can overpower someone is well within the physical capacity of most women -think of how you effortlessly breeze through doors on a daily basis. Those things are fucking heavy and solid, but you barely even notice them- noses are way softer than doors! And your legs, god bless your legs: if you can go from sitting to standing from a seat low enough to have your legs at 90 degrees or less at the knees, you could easily fracture a skull, a rib, break a knee with a well placed kick. Anyway.

Women are socialised to use and experience their bodies in very different ways than men, so don't experience themselves as powerful; most people do not respond to them as powerful either. Men expect themselves easily to be able to overpower most women. But to my mind and in my experience as a fighter and as someone who teaches others to fight, the 'ineffectualness' of female bodily styles is to do with organisation rather than actual capacity. I'm sure you must've seen that meme at some point about how an adult elephant in a circus won't try to escape if it's attached to a rope which in fact it could easily break - it's learned helplessness. (Once I've liberated womankind from its socialised helplessness, I'm going to go and start a revolution for the elephants, I fucking love elephants, sorry to digress).

I trained for years and years as the only woman in my group, the guys were way bigger than me and just as well trained. One guy's fist was as big as my head, he was fucking scary, but his nose was made of cartilage and he had a floating rib, he had an unprotected throat, he had a thin bit of bone at his temple. All the men were only made of flesh, just like me. Female flesh isn't a special kind of susceptible, isn't especially prone to bleeding or yielding or giving. Male bones are made of the same stuff. And I have given birth, I have physical resources he can only dream of. Once you are past the conditioned need to protect, defend, cower and go on the attack, he is in as much danger as you. And in my experience, men have a massive ego problem to deal with facing a woman, lots of men are terrified of losing to a woman. Which makes them irrational, tight: vulnerable.

Sure men are bigger but the degree of difference isn't meaningful. Physical power is a narrative we need to unpick, it's not straightforwardly biologically given that I am susceptible and at threat. Most adult women have had a lifetime of conditioning to softness, to defense, to deference. Most adult men have had a lifetime of thinking themselves powerful, of doing big, explosive movements, of using themselves powerfully. THis is the main cause of that inequity.

Sorry, that wasn't really such a short story.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 17/06/2014 19:53

I love your posts on power, Outs.

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 20:19

Totally agree Outs. While the actual difference in physical strength is small, the perceived difference is huge.

I would dearly love to feel strong and capable. But for some reason, possibly due to abuse, I have real trouble connecting with my body. Yoga totally overwhelmed me, and when I took up running and became fit and strong I couldn't really handle it.

More and more I see how I have been fucked over. I don't know if I'll ever feel fully "me."

OutsSelf · 17/06/2014 20:29

It's interesting to hear you describe yourself as overwhelmed, Callin. It reminds me of the Marianne Williamson quote that Nelson Mandela used:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.

FloraFox · 17/06/2014 20:31

Outs I love your posts and I'm very glad that's your experience. It's not mine though. I am shorter that almost all men I know. This puts me at a disadvantage in terms of reach as much as having less strength. Some short men or women can, through training, compensate to some degree for lack of reach or strength but that is not going to be the case for me nor for lots of other people. While I would encourage women to gain power and strength through training, I worry about the message that women are capable of achieving something approaching similar strength by overcoming conditioning. I don't believe this is possible for most women.

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 20:43

I do want to try exercising and getting strong again. I think being able to do that would be a huge step forward.

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 20:46

I think, Flora, that the problem is that overcoming conditioning is so bloody hard. I think if you did some fight training you would be really surprised at how easy it can be to bring down even a tall strong man with the right moves, but the problem is making yourself make those moves and convincing yourself to "fight dirty" and not be meek and acquiescent. I froze when attacked in the past but I don't think I would now, because I've given myself permission to gouge a man's eyes out if necessary. Send me to jail for GBH, I will not be raped again.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 17/06/2014 21:06

Outs do you have any thoughts on how women can begin to think of, and use, our bodies differently?

CailinDana · 17/06/2014 21:14

To butt in on the question Briar, one thing I'm conscious of is my inability to open my legs. What I mean is, when I bend down I do it so awkwardly because I am determined to keep my knees together. I distinctly remember why this is - my parents bought us night dresses when we were about 6 (me and my sister) and we would put them on after a bath with a pair of knickers and go to watch tv. We'd be lolling around, tired, as you do, and we'd be told to close our legs and not show off our knickers. In our own sitting room in the evening, while relaxing. What I wonder now is, if there was such a problem with showing our knickers then why the fuckity fuck did they buy us nightdresses and not pyjamas? Incidents like that ingrain in you that you must keep yourself tucked in, don't show anything. Any time I do anything active I feel ungainly and flollopping, even though I know I'm not, simply because I can't let myself just do what I need to do to move about the place.

I thought of all this when I was reading that thread recently about 7 year old girls being told to go and put PE shorts on because they were doing handstands and the boys were laughing at their knickers. When you're told at such a young age to restrict yourself and cover yourself up, it's no wonder really that it's so hard to overcome that conditioning isn't it?

I'm also aware that due to being raped I try to make myself as "unsexy" as possible so I restrict my movements, protect my back etc. I don't know if I can overcome that.

UptoapointLordCopper · 17/06/2014 21:22

Outs I like your post.

OutsSelf · 17/06/2014 21:26

I agree that men are and will remain stronger, what I dispute is how important that is in a fight.

I'm five foot and 48 kilos, most people, not just men, physically have more muscle than me. But it's not your muscles but your bones that do damage in a fight. If you've the strength to open a door, you've the strength to break a nose or a rib. Agreed, you have to train in the case you've been socialised to helplessness. But that socialisation is massive part of the problem, much more so than the differences is muscular strength between men and women.

OutsSelf · 17/06/2014 21:52

WRT reach and arm length, etc. - actually, your arm is strongest at full length. This means that as a fighter, what you do is position yourself properly to be most effective, so when you're fighting someone taller than you, you get inside their space, basically. It's very disabling for the taller fighter - you are at a good distance for effective attack and they are feeling wrong footed.

PacificDogwood · 17/06/2014 21:58

I was just going to quietly lurk , but Thanks to CaptChaos and 'hear, hear' to OutsSelf - fab posts.