TERF

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

So I have seen this expression a lot lately... and TERF gets thown out a lot when feminists are discussing things that are only capable of affecting biologically female women.

And I just can't get my head around it tbh. I don't think feminism should exclude people I think it helps everyone. I get really upset when white feminists forget about WOC or Lesbians, or other minority groups because the point of feminism is to make women's lives better. SO if there an issue that is unique to black women (for example) it is still all of our issue and should be dealt with by all feminist.

So if trans women want in on feminism why do they think can exclude the majority of women by saying we can't discuss our issues? And if trans people want to be accepted and have their rights championed by feminism is that fair since the majority of feminists aren't also suffering those same problems? Is it not a huge double standard?

Abortion rights and prenatal care and contraceptive health, vaginal rape. Are these things off the table now for feminism?

Am I getting it wrong, missing something? It feels to me like male privilege, telling women what they can and can't talk about..and doing so in a way where they actually feel guilty as though they have done something wrong.

Why isn't it viable?

Possibly because the word 'reasonable' is in the sentence. Public venues must make all reasonable adaptations to enable them to be accessible. All a venue has to say is that.... building a ramp, putting in a disabled loo or whatever would be unreasonable for them to do, and they have a get out of jail free card.

Just seen on another thread, someone unhappy because their transgender friend who dresses as male for work, and was wearing a suit at the time, was not allowed to use a women's changing room to try on a dress.

I just saw that calmet unbelieveable entitlement!

This notion of women being afraid of lesbians or comparing that with men in changing rooms is an utter nonsense. Some self-identified feminist called Stavvers has just published a ridiculous and lesbophobic blog in which she says she no longer feels safe in women's spaces because "transmisogynists" are obsessing about her genitals.

www.donotlink.com/framed?43198

Ugh.

That is a crazy blog post. And basically says there is no such thing as a lesbian, or if you claim to be one, you are a bigot.

I sometimes think the world has gone mad.

But women who born men that don't want to have sex with men are definitely not bigots.

No of course not. How transphobic of you to suggest they might be bigots.

calmet she's clearly targeting lesbians but what she's saying is that there can be no sexual attraction based on genitals unless you are a bigot or trans. She doesn't seem to be taking on men, either gay for not wanting sex with women or straight for not wanting sex with men.

Check out the comments on this story. Note the absence of trans activists telling these gay men to die in a fire.

www.queerty.com/trans-activist-demands-apology-from-university-for-allowing-dan-savage-to-say-tranny-making-school-unsafe-20140605

Meanwhile, on a lesbian site:

www.autostraddle.com/its-time-for-people-to-stop-using-the-social-construct-of-biological-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

Look at the KoolAid comments. Can these really be from lesbians?

Sorry my comment above was sarcasm.

Flora, often it is bisexual women who say this kind of stuff, rather than lesbians. The "cotton ceiling" only exists as a concept, because most lesbians won't have sex with MtoF.

Sorry calmet I did get that. Didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

Do you think this is about the prevalence of women saying they are queer even though they are not actually lesbian? I can't see why any lesbian would want to have sex with MtF but I know some women who say they are lesbians and have MtF partners.

When I was a young thing, lesbians seemed generally less accepting of all-comers. I remember women complaining about tourists in lesbian bars. was there with good friend, honest, not a tourist. Now it seems anyone can be a lesbian or queer, even if they are married to a man. How did that happen?

Its fine

Lesbians I have spoken to who have had MtoF partners seem either to be lesbians who are fairly new to being a lesbian and have been married/in long relationship with a man. Or have confusions about their own gender, may have considered transitioning for example. One lesbian who had previously had 2 MtoF partners explained to me that by being with a MtoF, she felt like she was sticking two fingers up at the lesbian community she had felt excluded from.

Or they have had really abusive relationships with women and think this will be safer.

Younger lesbians are more accepting at least superfacially, because they have been told time and time again how bigoted older lesbians have been for not wanting everyone in their space. Although they may change their mind in time after experiencing quite a few hen parties in bars. Yes this is behaving like a tourist going to gawp at the lesbians, and is very disrespectful.

Lesbians have been told for decades, that they are not really lesbians, that they need to have sex with men. Queer theory is just another assault on lesbians.

she felt like she was sticking two fingers up at the lesbian community she had felt excluded from.

was she are you sure she was actually a lesbian?

I was thinking about the changing room threads (and this may be a quite American prospective) but we had the whole "don't ask don't tell" policy didn't we?

Because you know men were basically concerned that gay man might see them naked or something. Despite the fact that they are all men. The gay man would have been changing with men his whole life and been socialized for that to be normal for him. But it was basically respected despite being ridiculous. When men have said they don't want gay men near them in changing rooms, it's always been respected and accepted as normal that they they should not want to be around gay men while naked despite this being totally down to homophobia.

But when women don't want to be around strange naked men it's discrimination. On changing room threads or asking for female HCPs women are always ridiculed for not wanting to open their legs to random men for inspection. AND one thing I always seen mentioned is, "well if you are going to discriminate against men I guess you don't want to change with lesbians or be seen by a lesbian HCP"

But literally I don't know any hetero women who feel that way and haven't seen seen any hetero women online or on mumsnet saying that.

I'm not scared of women that I need to act and behave a certain way around women so as not to suffer abuse. I haven't spent my whole like being told I need to act a certain way around women.

That Stavvers person is a total misogynist isn't she?

Basically it's STFU women, your concerns are just not valid.

I can't believe that she's a well-known feminist. She just doesn't sound like she comes from any feminist tradition I recognise. When did feminism become about telling women to STFU because their well-founded concerns are simply not valid? This just sounds like every bog-standard response to every concern women ever have. Not like a feminist response at all.

RFFU - Yes she is a lesbian, despite being really mixed up. She nwo thinks she was wrong since discovering real feminism. Lesbians can still have a lot of internalised misogyny.

All the lesbians I know say they are very careful in women's changing rooms not to look at other women at all in case they misinterpret. But women are not raised to be sexual predators.

And yes, men's fears are always taken much more seriously than women's. Even though they are not the ones being raped and sexually harassed by men in vast numbers.

Yes she is a lesbian, despite being really mixed up. She nwo thinks she was wrong since discovering real feminism. Lesbians can still have a lot of internalised misogyny.

That's kind of surprising to me (naive I guess) but I would have thought it would be much easier as a lesbian to be clear in your head about things related to sex and gender.

*and especially feminism

No sadly not. There are plenty of lesbians with internalised misogyny. There is currently a significant number of lesbians who have decided tehy are men and are transitioning to FtoM's.

Being sexually attracted to other women, is not the same as having any understanding of how women are oppressed by men.

ooh rffu I hate that 'lesbians objectify women just like men do, so lump it and put up with your boundaries being invaded by men'

I think there are valuable conversations to have within the lesbian community, from a feminist perspective, about objectification and I do think if a woman did leer it would be a problem but firstly I really haven't experienced that much (so many more threatening situations where a straight woman's projected something odd onto my being a lesbian and been aggressive towards me) and secondly I don't feel as threatened when it does happen (I can count the instances on one hand) as when a man is threatening, but thirdly surely the fact a woman doctor understands what's painful or uncomfortable for a woman patient is what's relevant there.

I think it is very rare for lesbians to leer at other women. But women are not taught to be sexual predators.

Well, quite. I think it's telling that anyone undermining a woman's wish to see a woman doctor is portraying that predation as an inherent facet of being attracted to women. Like there's no other way to express an attraction to women than leering and thinking objectifying thoughts.

It is because they think lesbians behave like men, instead of like women. It is actually pretty lesbophobic.

I'm not sure if it's lesbophobic as such, so much as simply believing that the default behaviour re sex is male behaviour. So lesbians because they're attracted to women, must have the same (predatory) behaviour and attitude to women as straight men, the other group who are attracted to women. It's not about the lesbians themselves so much as the projection of male behaviour onto women. It's sort of lesbophobia by proxy as opposed to direct lesbophobia IYSWIM.

I'm not sure if I know what I mean tbh.

It feels like lesbophobia to lesbians. I get that there's issues around male predation on women in the mix but in terms of how it plays out it's straight up lesbophobic

For example, parents not wanting children to play with your children in case you abuse them, volunteering coordinators keeping you away from women in case you assault them or leer at them, employers choosing straight women over you in case you threaten people, lesbians being socially isolated due to shunning for lesbophobic reasons above etc etc - it's part of how oppression of lesbians plays out.