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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERF

437 replies

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/05/2014 00:11

So I have seen this expression a lot lately... and TERF gets thown out a lot when feminists are discussing things that are only capable of affecting biologically female women.

And I just can't get my head around it tbh. I don't think feminism should exclude people I think it helps everyone. I get really upset when white feminists forget about WOC or Lesbians, or other minority groups because the point of feminism is to make women's lives better. SO if there an issue that is unique to black women (for example) it is still all of our issue and should be dealt with by all feminist.

So if trans women want in on feminism why do they think can exclude the majority of women by saying we can't discuss our issues? And if trans people want to be accepted and have their rights championed by feminism is that fair since the majority of feminists aren't also suffering those same problems? Is it not a huge double standard?

Abortion rights and prenatal care and contraceptive health, vaginal rape. Are these things off the table now for feminism?

Am I getting it wrong, missing something? It feels to me like male privilege, telling women what they can and can't talk about..and doing so in a way where they actually feel guilty as though they have done something wrong.

OP posts:
almondcakes · 05/06/2014 15:11

Black has been used as a political term in the UK. Newham Monitoring Project and Southall Black Sisters both use black to include Asian people.

The 'official term' is probably BME women - black and minority ethnic women.

I don't think WOC is offensive, but I think it doesn't really work to explain the situation with racism in the UK - UKIP and impact on Polish people isn't about their physical appearance, we haven't had Jim Crow etc.

There is an explanation of the different terms in the UK, including black as a political term here:
www.universities-scotland.ac.uk/raceequalitytoolkit/terminology.htm

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 15:21

Thanks for that almondcakes, it would never have even occurred to me that "black" would be used to describe anyone not of African decent.

I see what you mean about poc not covering Eastern Europeans who are all discriminated against in the UK too

OP posts:
almondcakes · 05/06/2014 15:28

RFFU, I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think we have a good set of terms for ethnicity, and in 99% of UK conversations I would assume black meant Afro-Caribbean. I also didn't know until recently that some British people who have come directly from Africa (or have parents who did) don't like the term black.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/06/2014 15:48

I would tend to use Black with a capital. There's a definition here blackfeministsmanchester.wordpress.com/about/ or on blackfeminists.org. That's the definition that comes to mind when I hear 'black'.
I instinctively shy away from abbreviations as I think they invisiblise the characteristic they refer to, almost.
But if someone prefers a different term to refer to themselves, I'll use that.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/06/2014 15:48

I would tend to use Black with a capital. There's a definition here blackfeministsmanchester.wordpress.com/about/ or on blackfeminists.org. That's the definition that comes to mind when I hear 'black'.
I instinctively shy away from abbreviations as I think they invisiblise the characteristic they refer to, almost.
But if someone prefers a different term to refer to themselves, I'll use that.

useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 17:12

Wow.I have soooo much to learn. The information you have so kindly posted leaves me fascinated and thirsty for me, however I do realise it is unfair to expect that from this specific thread.
I am seriously considering starting a Feminist 101 For the sweetly clueless thread!!
(Wording may just need some adjustment methinks)
Yes, religion is the issue.. trying to get a little braver day by day.

I feel humbled by everyone who has taken the time to respond to a poster who could, on the face of it and some would agree in truth to be a PITA.

You have widened my world.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 05/06/2014 17:18

Feel free to start a 101 thread. Blackcurrants did one once, it was a good thread.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/06/2014 18:44

I quite like the idea that Mumsnet doesn't get stuck behind a firewall as it's so wholesome. Subversive somehow.

This thread is fairly complex as it goes into detail about opposing ideologies and probably isn't the best intro to feminism. Although if this hasn't put you off, you'll go far.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 19:08

it's quite ironic really as most people new to MN have found their way here via a penis beaker..

OP posts:
SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/06/2014 20:51

I remember some fairly sordid threads years ago - dragon butter, pegging etc.

Some of my favourite feminists have come from faith backgrounds originally - Sonia Johnson and Mary Daly spring to mind. Although I think in the '70s and '80s there was more room for feminist/woman-centred thought within even quite conservative religions.

NotAgainTrevor · 05/06/2014 22:25

I think the current situation is dreadful, TERF and transphobic is thrown around liberally and used to silence discussion. On the one hand it is said that people get to define who they are and on the other female born women are told that they cannot define who they are and if they try they are transphobic bigots.

I have been raped as have many women I know. Even those that don't consider themselves to have been assaulted have tales of slaps on the bum, groping of breasts, men exposing themselves and having erections rubbed up against them in public places, a real horror is that most don't consider themselves to have been assaulted as it happens so often as to be normal. I have no wish to share women's private space with people with penises. If forced too I would stop using the swimming pool, the gym etc, my life would be restricted and I would be marginalised. It is not transphobia saying this it is a genuine fear and distrust with many men caused by their actions. I don't believe that a genuine Transwoman would assault me, but given that trans activists tell us that anyone who says they are a woman is and should be able to use female spaces how the hell are we supposed to tell the difference between the genuine, the fetishests and the blokes just doing it because they can?

It is often argued by trans activists that there is no evidence for this, but what about Chris Hambrook? What about the transwomen who have been prosecuted and imprisoned for rape? It is all well and good saying that they are not really trans after the fact but how the hell are we supposed to tell the difference before? Is it just to marginalise many, many women by allowing men with penises into their 'safe spaces' is it just to put women at the risk of rape and sexual assault because we are not allowed to question if they are genuine or not? If you say that it is fair to do this then logically you must be saying that females are lesser beings with fewer rights.

The only solution I can see is that we have separate unisex areas with closed cubicles. I can understand why a transwoman who has spent her life feeling different and just wanting to belong would find being placed in a category of 'other' desperately upsetting but at some points there are no solutions to fit everybody. Even if the 1 in 4 females that have been assaulted are the only ones who object to male bodied people in their private space how can it be acceptable to marginalise 12.5% of the population to account for the feelings of 0.03% (of which M2T will make up a lower number). No matter how unpalatable some may find it when there is no better solution we have to play the numbers game, this is not wishing death on all transwomen, as many activists would claim, this is finding the best solution to the safety and security of all.

I've always thought that logically RadFems and Transwomen should be perfect allies, break down gender stereotypes and allow people just to be, able to express themselves however they choose without fear of being outed or attacked. Those that still found themselves still definitely within the wrong body could have reassignment surgery if it would ease the pain. But without the stigma and judgement attached. That we are not allies but diametrically and viciously opposed suggests that there is another factor at play here. One that is dangerous for women and seeks to undo the protections we have fought for and to subjugate us further.

CrotchMaven · 05/06/2014 22:33

I've always thought that logically RadFems and Transwomen should be perfect allies

Me too. When I am being charitable, it baffles me why they are not.

Beachcomber · 06/06/2014 07:07

Radical Feminists and transwomen are not perfect allies due to holding opposing views on gender.

Radfems reject gender. Transgenderism fetishises gender. Radfems are woman centric and pro lesbian. Transgenderism is male centric and homophobic and anti lesbian.

Transgenderism is deeply conservative. Radical feminism is radical.

There is potential to be allies with certain individual transpeople but the transmovement as it exists just now does not wish to be allied with feminism, it wishes to co-opt feminism, to exploit feminism. And this has been pretty successful in liberal feminist circles. The trans movement has also co-opted aspects of the gay rights movement and the intersex community.

Transgenderism as it operates today is anti woman, anti lesbian and anti feminist.

NotAgainTrevor · 06/06/2014 08:06

I know this is why we are not allied together, which means the main activist transgender movement is not about freedom to express who you are as is often claimed. It is about keeping women in their place and denying us freedom. The genuine and not irrational fears women have due to men's actions are not listened to and understood, they're shouted down and called transphobic bigots. Because women don't matter one jot.

I cannot believe how many people call themselves feminists but go along with this shit.

AskBasil · 06/06/2014 08:12

Well, some women call themselves feminists while going along with the idea that men are entitled to sex, so I suppose we should never be too surprised by what can pass for feminism....

AskBasil · 06/06/2014 08:13

Also Chris Hambrook et al are just the ones we know about.

We don't kinow what goes in female prisons because we're not generally told.

NotAgainTrevor · 06/06/2014 08:43

Ah yes, like the many who think men should just be able to walk away from an unplanned pregnancy in the name of equality. Because yet again putting all the risks and consequences onto women whilst allowing men no fucking consequences whatsoever is somehow making things 'equal.'

Has any activist actually answered the question of if we allow anyone free access to women's spaces based on their say so how will we stop the so called 'cisgender' males from abusing it? Therefore putting both females and transwomen at increased risk from harm? I've never seen it, which suggests yet again it is not about safety and equality it is about controlling women.

AskBasil · 06/06/2014 09:10

I'm not sure if any transactivist has ever answered that question tbh, my impression is that if you ask it, you will be called a transphobic TERF. But I don't get involved with trans politics that much as I simply can't be bothered to engage with it and also I don't want to be targeted the way women who have spoken out are. I'm just not that brave.

It disgusts me so much, that the main voice I hear from transactivism, is that which is determined to shut feminism down, while I hear nothing from them about the really powerful people and organisations (led by men) which they don't target. They don't threaten fascists, Men's Rights Activists, the church etc.- those organisations which are male led and have genuine power over their lives, unlike radical feminists and are implacably imposed to any deviation from gender norms and would most certainly not validate their views of themselves. But I accept that there may be an activist wing who are in fact doing that rather than threatening radical feminists with violence and I don't know enough about the politics to realise that they're out there. I will say that it's the one thing I really admire Peter Tatchell for, is his steadfast obsession with attacking Anglican bishops. Grin Or any patriarchal religious leader really, good on him.

Beachcomber · 06/06/2014 09:49

Janice Raymond on the fetishization of women as sexualised objects;

From here.

transgendersurvivor.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/trannies-fetishize-and-crave-man-made-simulacra-of-female-biology/

Finally, and I think most important, there are more male-to-constructed-female transsexuals because men are socialized to fetishize and objectify. The same socialization that enables men to objectify women in rape, pornography, and “drag” enables them to objectify their own bodies. In the case of the male transsexual, the penis is seen as a “thing” to be gotten rid of. Female body parts, specifically the female genitalia, are “things” to be acquired. Men have always fetishized women’s genitals. Breasts, legs, buttocks are all parts of a cultural fixation that reduces women not even to a whole objectified nude body but rather to fetishized parts of the female torso. The Venus de Milo symbolizes this as well as the fact that it has never been restored to its original integrity. “Cunt, ” “ass, ” “getting one’s rocks off, ” “balling, ” are all sexist slogans of this fetishized worldview where even “chicks” and “broads” are reduced to the barest essentials. Male-to-constructed-female transsexualism is only one more relatively recent variation on this theme where the female genitalia are completely separated from the biological woman and, through surgery, come to be dominated by incorporation into the biological man. Transsexualism is thus the ultimate, and we might even say the logical, conclusion of male possession of women in a patriarchal society. Literally, men here possess women.

Definitions of fetishism are revealing in this context. Webster’s Dictionary defines fetish in several ways: First, as an object believed among a primitive people to have magical power to protect or aid its owner; broadly: a material object regarded with superstitious or extravagant trust or reverence; an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion; an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression. Second, as a rite or cult of fetish worshipers. Third, fetish is simply defined as fixation. From these definitions, it is clear that the process of fetishization has two sides: objectification, and what might be referred to as worship in the widest sense. Objectification is largely accomplished by a process of fragmentation. The fetish is the fragmented part taken away from the whole, or better, the fetish is seen to contain the whole. It represents an attempt to grasp the whole. For example, breasts and legs in our society arefetish objects containing the essence of femaleness. Thus the fetish contains and by containing controls.

However, the other side of fetishization is worship or reverence for the fetish object. In primitive religions, fetish objects were worshiped because people were afraid of the power they were seen to contain. Therefore primitive peoples sought to control the power of the fetish by worshiping it and in so doing they confined it to its “rightful place. ” There was a recognition of a power that people felt they lacked and a constant quest in ceremonies and cults to invest themselves with the power of the fetish object. Thus to worship was also to control. In this way, objectification and worship are two sides of the same coin. In this sense transsexualism is fetishization par excellence— a twisted recognition on the part of some men of the creative capacities of the female spirit as symbolized and incarnated in the usurped female biology. This usurpation of female biology, of course, is limited to the artifacts of female biology (silicone breast implants, exogenous estrogen therapy, artificial vaginas, etc. ) that modem medicine has surgically and hormonally created. Thus transsexual fetishization is further limited not even to the real parts of the real whole, but to the artifactual parts of the artifactual whole.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 06/06/2014 10:06

"Has any activist actually answered the question of if we allow anyone free access to women's spaces based on their say so how will we stop the so called 'cisgender' males from abusing it? "

This is a good point.

JuliaScurr · 06/06/2014 12:00

I've never had an answer to that question - like 'nalmalt' - how are we meant to know which ones? better for us to be escorted to the lav, apparently

FloraFox · 06/06/2014 12:36

Has any activist actually answered the question of if we allow anyone free access to women's spaces based on their say so how will we stop the so called 'cisgender' males from abusing it?

I asked this question of a transactivist in a forum where it would have been unacceptable to simply shout bigot. The "answer" was that given men's exalted status, no "cis" man is going to put himself through the stigma of putting on a dress or calling himself a woman just so he can get into women's bathrooms.

Apart from being astonishingly naive, that statement would tend to mean that the stigma associated with being trans is what protects men from claiming to be women so they can abuse women's space. If that's true, removing the stigma would expose women to harm. I don't think it's true, I think abusive men are capable of all sorts of behaviour.

calmet · 06/06/2014 13:49

That is a shockingly naive answer.
Transactivists don't tend to answer this question, because it can't be answered, except by restricting who can access women's spaces.

NotAgainTrevor · 06/06/2014 14:32

What I do find so shocking is it does not adequately protect transwomen from overwhelmingly male abuse either. Everyone gets chucked under the bus for the sake of the few that require validation above all else.

DonkeySkin · 06/06/2014 14:35

The "answer" was that given men's exalted status, no "cis" man is going to put himself through the stigma of putting on a dress or calling himself a woman just so he can get into women's bathrooms.

Ahem.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/olympia-wa-school-officials-state-gender-identity-provision-overrides-title-ix-equality-for-girls-swim-teams/

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