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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERF

437 replies

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/05/2014 00:11

So I have seen this expression a lot lately... and TERF gets thown out a lot when feminists are discussing things that are only capable of affecting biologically female women.

And I just can't get my head around it tbh. I don't think feminism should exclude people I think it helps everyone. I get really upset when white feminists forget about WOC or Lesbians, or other minority groups because the point of feminism is to make women's lives better. SO if there an issue that is unique to black women (for example) it is still all of our issue and should be dealt with by all feminist.

So if trans women want in on feminism why do they think can exclude the majority of women by saying we can't discuss our issues? And if trans people want to be accepted and have their rights championed by feminism is that fair since the majority of feminists aren't also suffering those same problems? Is it not a huge double standard?

Abortion rights and prenatal care and contraceptive health, vaginal rape. Are these things off the table now for feminism?

Am I getting it wrong, missing something? It feels to me like male privilege, telling women what they can and can't talk about..and doing so in a way where they actually feel guilty as though they have done something wrong.

OP posts:
calmet · 05/06/2014 09:22

I totally agree with all of that. Any questioning at all gets you labelled a TERF or transphobic, there is no middle ground.

But I do think the small number of feminists who are mocking of individual Trans people, don't help matters. It is important to focus on how transgenderism theory and activists harm women. Attacking individuals, no matter how vile they are, actually dilutes the message. After all if every single Trans person was a decent individual, transgender theory would still be harmful to women.

allhailqueenmab · 05/06/2014 09:55

There is a quote from Cary Grant that goes something like “Everyone wants to be Cary Grant. Even I want to be Cary Grant.” It is a comment on the role, the persona, that even the person who is “behind it” is not quite it.
I am reminded of this in the context of the ultra-feminine that seems to be required of, or even conflated with, actual womanhood. It is not enough to be a woman – it isn’t even necessary to be a woman. “Everyone wants to be a woman, even women want to be women” seems relevant. It is being taken away from us and becoming another thing we are considered inadequate to.

(The Cary Grant persona was of course an apogee of masculinity. If you try to imagine an equivalent apogee of femininity, and give the quote to her, you get maybe “Everyone wants to be Marilyn Munroe. Even I want to be Marilyn Munroe”. This is very poignant as of course the struggle to be MM was too much and ultimately lethal even for her)

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 05/06/2014 10:19

I think Linda Evangelista said similar, but that was a photoshop comment!

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 05/06/2014 10:19

I think Linda Evangelista said similar, but that was a photoshop comment!

useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 11:11

Anyone available to help???
ANYONE?

Surely I'm not the only underinformed one out here

CaptChaos · 05/06/2014 11:18

Which acronyms are you having problems with? I can try and help. I fully admit I'm no expert though.

almondcakes · 05/06/2014 11:21

What terms do you want defining?

Beachcomber · 05/06/2014 11:35

Useryourillusion are you seriously asking that we go through this long thread and pick out any terms that we guesstimate you might not be familiar with and then patiently and helpfully write out dictionary definitions of those terms for you?!

You obviously have access to the internet, look them up yourself. It is not unusual or a problem on here to ask for a couple of definitions and most posters are happy to help. Your request is just silly though and potentially derailing.

Beachcomber · 05/06/2014 11:41

Oh and I see you say that you haven't bothered to actually read the thread.

We are having a discussion we are not a public dictionary service. If you read the discussion you might understand the terms used.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 05/06/2014 11:42

RFFU translated at least two.

useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 11:52

I'm really sorry if my request seems silly or potentially derailing. It is a real, genuine request for help, to which obviously nobody is actually obliged to reply, but if anyone does use some of their time to explain any of the gender politics terms and acronyms you have the gratitude of an anonymous little poster who is actually risking quite a lot to post on this thread and on this site. Which ones? Erm, anything you think, really!
I "obviously have access to the internet" True - in a highly limited way, and tbh am more than slightly surprised this one is not firewalled.
It would not be a good idea to give any more info to possibly out myself.
The very fact that I am scared of the possible consequences for myself and those around me is a compelling reason to educate myself... as a woman and a person. Of course, the posters I appear to have annoyed would not know that. It could appear to be silly etc but I can categorically assure you that it is not.
Unfortunately we all make assumptions based on what we read coupled with our own circumstances/experiences. I apologise once more, feeling more than a little upset about this.
Perhaps I need to start a new thread? Am feeling a little put off now...
Thank you.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 05/06/2014 11:56

Could you list the acronyms you don't understand, then?

RFFU has defined TERF and SWERF upthread.

almondcakes · 05/06/2014 11:58

Why don't you just tell us what words you want defining. I can't know without you telling me. I had to look up the meaning of some of the words you used, so it isn't true that you need all vocabulary beyond the scope of an eight year old explaining to you.

Beachcomber · 05/06/2014 12:46

You are going to have to tell us specifically which terms you don't understand. The language of gender politics is vast. It does merit a thread of its own IMO as this thread is a specific and on going discussion of feminist analysis of transgenderism.

I'm have no desire to put you off learning and you haven't annoyed me - I'm just pointing out that the task you set us is vast, interrupting an established discussion and will need to involve some effort on your part.

A site like this might help you if you can access it.

finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 13:14

Are you posting from a country with limited internet access?

OP posts:
useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 13:37

Right, now I don't have someone sitting next to me I can go on.... not sure
where to start.
Thank you to those who have responded firstly, I can see that the question I asked is indeed vast. Being a noob, I guess I need to clarify....
The reasons I have not "bothered" - a particular choice of vocabulary positively ripe with implication imho - to read the thread are that I came upon it, thought it looked intriguing, read a few post on the early pages then realised I simply do not understand the terms/acronyms employed. Am I correct in surmising that this enourmous chasm in my knowledge would mean that I really cannot follow the discussion closely?
One of my next steps is to go through the thread extremely carefully, pick out the terms/acronyms I do not understand and then find a means of unpicking them - however that may be with my limited resource. That will happen as soon as I can organise it.
Many thanks for the definitions already received. To clarify, I hopefully have the vocabulary/IQ of the average 8 yr old. My lack is in resource and exposure to the wider world, that is why that parallel was drawn

must go

useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 13:46

Really no, its hard to explain, a system rather than a country iykwim

posts are disjointed, sorry

useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 13:48

sorry forgot to say I cannot access that wordpress site, but I appreciate your time and effort to try and help

Beachcomber · 05/06/2014 13:53

You're welcome. Shame you cannot access it. Is the lack of access religion related by any chance? (No pressure to answer that)

almondcakes · 05/06/2014 13:57

Page one - WOC. Woman of colour. A term used in North America to refer to all women other than non-Hispanic white women.

MRA- Men's Rights Activist. A person who believes that men experience sexism and that they need their own movement to address this so that men as a group have more rights than they currently do.

Cis-gender. A person whose gender identity 'matches' the biological sex that they were defined as being at birth.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 14:27

Dunno. It's all about Secret Squirrel. But at the risk of looking stupid, I've copy and pasted some basic feminist acronyms and terms from the link above.

    First wave feminism : the advocacy of basic legal (de jure) equality: suffragists, property inheritance and contractual agency rights. Historically a movement for wives of the propertied classes, but a broader movement today in those countries where women are still denied de jure equality.
    Second wave feminism : working for the implementation/enforcement of de jure equalities but also concerned with de facto (unofficial) inequalities: finding the political in the personal and fighting for changes in long-standing sexist prejudices and traditions – socioeconomic equality not just legal equality, and for more than just the propertied classes.
    Third wave feminism: a challenge to essentialist views of femininity (as biologically reductive) and feminisms (as homogenously directed) combined with an emphasis on the intersectionality of oppressions.

MRA: male rights activist – a term which once referred more generally to Men’s Movements but which has come to refer mostly to the most stridently anti-feminist

patriarchy: one of the most misunderstood critical-theory concepts ever, often wilfully misunderstood. Patriarchy is an ancient and ongoing social system based on traditions of elitism (a hierarchy of inferiorities), privilege and the subjugation of women via strict gender expectations which constrain individualist expressions. Some societies are more patriarchal than others, but patriarchal social traditions are universal in human societies. [more in the Patriarchy FAQ] [back to top]

PHMT: Patriarchy Hurts Men Too. Men are also constrained from full individualist expression by strict gender expectations. (Corollary: FBMT – Feminism benefits men too –

PUA: Pick Up Artist. Sexual predator as serial scorekeeping seducer. [link from theriomorph] The goal of PUA as a sport is to defeat the minds so inconveniently attached to ladybits rather than treat women as people who could enjoy sexual fun together with egalitarian men. A growing movement designed to persuade both men and women that this reduction of gender relations to a hunt for sex is a reasonable and sane model for human interaction. [back to top]
privilege: advantages that some groups have over other groups in the social hierarchy. Privilege is not taken by the individual, it is given by society. Some privileges are situational and temporary (parent over child, employer over employee) and serve a pragmatic social purpose but other privileges are societal and traditional and serve to perpetuate elitism. Some elitist privileges are de jure (e.g. South African racial apartheid, rules against the ordination of women as priests) but most are de facto (informal discrimination against “others” in the workplace, education, financial transactions (e.g. exclusionary “mates’ rates”) and social recognition/reward). [more in the Male Privilege FAQ] [back to top]

radfem: radical feminist [back to top]
rape culture: a constellation of behaviours and attitudes embedded into patriarchal society. These attitudes, socialised from birth and often wielded unconsciously, enable and encourage the subordination of women by maintaining a environment that is pervasively hostile and threatening to women. The behaviours include a spectrum of acts which function to keep women in an object role and perpetuate their fear. They include (but are not limited to) certain aspects of “chivalry”, victim-blaming, leering, intimidation, sexual harrassment and coercion, domestic violence, assault and rape. (defn from lauredhel) [more: Biting Beaver] [back to top]
sex-pos: strictly, a term used in the debate about the balance between harms and freedoms for women in the commercialisation of female sexuality – sex-positive feminist, as opposed to anti-pornography feminist (unfortunately “sex-pos” is used more loosely by people unaware of the history of the sex-industry debate).  Both sex-positive and anti-pornography are overly-simplistic terms, as they imply that their opponents are respectively sex-negative or pro-pronography/prostitution (pro-censorship is another one thrown around), when generally everybody involved on all sides is holding more nuanced positions. [back to top]
strawfeminist: a false construction, created to scare people away from the juicy crops of equality, equity and the end of female subjugation. Derived from the classic fallacy in formal logic known as the “strawman fallacy” : a strawfeminist is a strawman argument applied against feminists. (See our “spot the strawfeminist” category) [back to top]
Waves of feminism: See above [link] [back to top]
OP posts:
ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 14:32

almondccakes what would be the best term to use other than WOC in the UK? I am American so it's my default. I like the word because it describes the collective experiences of people who aren't white in America but also doesn't focus on what they are not iyswim? Is there an equivalent I could use?Or should I carry on using it? Don't know if it is offensive here or not.. I don't get political in my every day life so unlikely that I will pick it up that way.

OP posts:
calmet · 05/06/2014 14:40

I use the word black as a political term. But I see more and more youngw omen using POC. I guess it is just one more Americanisation of our language.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 05/06/2014 14:45

NAMALT - not all men are like that. Used a bit tongue in cheek.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 14:50

But black doesn't really work if you are describing say the situation of people of African and Asian decent in the UK? We do say black as well, but it's more specific, if I were only referring to African Americans.

OP posts: