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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Newnight report on brothels

999 replies

itshardthinkingofanickname · 20/02/2014 22:53

Worth £16 billion in Germany. Legal to "make it safer".

Interview with 22 yr old Hannah. 6 men per night, earns 100 to 1000 euros per night,

Talking about should it be illegal in the UK and the fact that brothels are safer than the streets. They have super brothels in Germany.

OP posts:
JuliaScurr · 28/02/2014 20:14

Home Office 2004 reported over half of prostitutes have been sexually assaulted/raped and 75% physically assaulted by pimps or punters
In 2001 half reported client violence

The Invisible Men Project shows the punters in their own words

Not feminists; not Mary Honeyball; not the police. Punters.
Let's deal with reality

CaptChaos · 28/02/2014 20:44

Pimps are security?

Do you come from the same planet as the rest of us? Do you know what a pimp is?

FloraFox · 28/02/2014 20:58

What I see is that you are selective in your interpretation of everything associated with this issue to support your belief that women's bodies should be available for purchase by men.

This notion that pimps are security guards employed by women in prostitution would be laughable were it not for the fact that some deluded liberals seem to believe it. There's a reason you find the word so uncomfortable. It's because it represents the most reprehensible and exploitative behaviour in society.

migsy86 · 28/02/2014 22:10

My friend will often drive me to the parties and be there until the end (not taking part) and then drive me home, knowing someone is there for me makes me feel safer and I've previously said I prefer the parties because I feel I'm not at risk even though I have to 'entertain' more men.

For me I'm still not happy with the Nordic model, because stuff like adult parties will still go on but it would be more underground and riskier imo.

FloraFox · 28/02/2014 22:21

^^ This is not what friends do. This man is your pimp, migsy

You also said the parties are more difficult for you and you only do them because they pay more. Your pimp makes his living from men fucking you and possibly other women he is also pimping.

WhentheRed · 01/03/2014 15:38

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migsy86 · 01/03/2014 17:28

I suppose a lot of us want the stigma surrounding selling/buying sex to be lost, and by decriminalising a lot of activities around prostitution i.e soliciting, being able to rent properties etc this may happen.

It is underground to some degree but there are lots of sites out there which women (and some men) advertise their services, if the Nordic model was introduced presumably these sites would close? I know that I'd have to rely even more on other people getting me work doing the party/group sessions, because they are organised in a completely different way compared to the majority of sites like Adultwork.

WhentheRed · 01/03/2014 17:41

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Grennie · 01/03/2014 17:42

The stigma is still there in Germany. Read any article interviewing women in legal brothels in Germany. Most won't be photographed in a way that identifies or give their surname.

migsy86 · 01/03/2014 17:50

Because I can't get my head around a system where buying something is illegal but selling something isn't. I think of it in the term of oranges: You can sell oranges, but not buy them, steal them and that's against the law, but I can give my oranges away for free!

I know it's been said before but by making one half of a contract illegal you are criminalising the seller by default.

And I know certain sites, where webcamming, and clips are for sale would continue but I was thinking of the sites that just advertise escorts.

WhentheRed · 01/03/2014 18:20

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grimbletart · 02/03/2014 13:06

Excuse length of post, but I thought it was pretty relevant to the discussion.

Today's Sunday Telegraph magazine has a feature on legalised prostitution in Germany. I cannot find a link for it online as yet.

Can't quote reams from it obviously but the introduction is: "When Germany legalised prostitution it imagined a utopia where women could ply their trade safely with proper pensions and other benefits. The reality, however, has proved quite different. Nisha Lilia Diu (the magazine's assistant editor) visits the country's 'mega-brothels' to find who has profited from the softening of the law. Clue: it's not the sex workers….."

It's a 5-page article, so you need to read it for yourselves. But it's clear that the people who benefit are the mega-wealthy pimps e.g. Michael Beretin a partner in a company who runs the so inaptly named Paradise chain of brothels, which is the country's brothel equivalent of Primark or Pizza Hut (according to the article).

The idea of the law was to recognise prostitution as a job like any other the article says but it hasn't worked. Only 44 prostitutes have registered for benefits apparently.

Germany appears not to have learned from the Netherlands: that country's deputy prime minister has called legalisation "a national mistake", having made it much easier for traffickers to go to a country where brothels are legal and where it is legal to manage prostitutes.

More than 55,000 men visit Paradise Stuttgart every year paying a 79 Euro entrance fee and negotiating the sex fee with the prostitute. Apparently prices are now going down according to a prostitute who has worked there for two years "Every day less" she says.

The mayor of Saarbrucken said they had at least 100 brothels in the city and prostitutes approach men in supermarket car parks. "It is easier to open a brothel than a chip shop" she says because there are no restrictions and the prostitutes merely rent rooms. Brothel owners don't want to employ prostitutes because they don't want an employment contract. They want to save the social security contribution, according to Guntram Knop, an expert in prostitution law. Both parties cut costs by eliminating health insurance and pension contributions.

Asked if the women at his clubs were working voluntarily Paradise's Jurgen Rudloff replied "That's not my business." Strictly speaking, the article says, he's right. As long as they're just renting rooms, brothels have no accountability towards the prostitutes.

There are interviews with prostitutes. Too potentially triggering to report what they said.

Rudloff is asked if he would be happy for either of his two daughters to work at Paradise. "Unthinkable, unthinkable. I don't mean to offend the prostitutes but I try to raise my children so that they have professional opportunities. Most prostitutes don't have those options. That's why they are doing that job. Unimaginable (he repeats). "I don't even what to think about it".

Yup-says it all!

BriarRainbowshimmer · 02/03/2014 15:04

The fact this happens in our actual modern reality is beyond depressing.

I must comment on the name of the brothel: Paradise.
Just fucking imagine the mentality of the men who thinks a brothel - full of possibly trafficked women who don't actually want him but he can fuck anway - is a paradise.
More like hell on Earth for the actual women. Except in the Christian version of hell, only sinners end up there.

grimbletart · 02/03/2014 15:44

Still can't find a link, but I understand you can access Stella, the ST magazine via Facebook. I don't do Facebook so can't confirm that.

WhentheRed · 02/03/2014 16:52

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grimbletart · 02/03/2014 18:38

There was one. Quote:

"One Pascha regular is Robert. He visits two or three times a week with friends or colleagues from the pizzeria where he works. 'We go first to the table dance [on the ground floor], have some fun, look at the girls and then we split off and everybody goes upstairs separately.'
"There are, he says 'a lot of idiots' walking around who are 'drunk and disrespectful' to the women. 'Like, Hey, bitch, I am too nice for you.'

"Robert is 23. He's an average looking guy with a gentle manner. Couldn't he just chat up women in the bar?" 'It's easier here. You spend your money, you know what you get. You don't have to talk about anybody or anything.'

"He's noticed 'a few girls' who seem unhappy. What would he do if he thought one was being forced?" 'I just wouldn't go with her'.

Red: I won't quote the prostitutes - as I said it could be triggering- but I think the following sums up the attitudes of pimps and punters.

A guy called Herbert Krauleidis launched a website, which the article's author says is basically EBay for sex where women post pictures and men bid for them. He is currently in talks with investors to launch sites in other countries, including the UK. Features an array of categories from slaves to gang-bangs. The biggest earners are virgins. He is launching a mobile app next month. His press officer (I kid you not) describes it to the author thus: "So you check into a hotel, you look up your phone and choose a woman…" "Like a pizza," said Krauleidis absent-mindedly scrolling through his emails.

BriarRainbowshimmer · 02/03/2014 18:42

Women are not fast food.
How are we supposed to react to such evil?
I just want those male psychos - the pimps and punters- to die. Launch them into space or something. They have shown that they're not worthy of interacting with other humans.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/03/2014 19:05

Shocking. Women literally sold as commodities.

JuliaScurr · 02/03/2014 20:22

Jesus, it's just gross
imagine the mentality of men who buy 'virgins'
this is my main problem - the punters

WhentheRed · 02/03/2014 21:15

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migsy86 · 02/03/2014 21:57

I still believe in choice. Now whether or not I may have had a shitty background or started as a teen is irrelevant. Men 'buy' my consent yes, but it's still consensual and it's my choice to make, not anyone else's.

I have said before I know what these men think of me, there are various punting forums on the net, it's not hard to find out just exactly what they think of us, I've also been told directly too.

But unless you make everyone on the planet equal, give them the same opportunities then industries like this will exist. Add to that the fact some women enjoy being paid for sex and others do it to put food on the table and you'll never eradicate prostitution, it will just continue under different guises and be even more dangerous for the workers

WhentheRed · 02/03/2014 22:44

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migsy86 · 02/03/2014 23:07

Maybe it won't be safer, but just look at drugs, the illegal ones are obviously very dangerous and many people die taking them, but yet that's an illegal activity

And how would this model work? I can see how it would affect the street workers but for the people like me who already work indoors how will the police know? Unless they were in the room how would they know I had just been paid for sex? I could advertise under masseuse or something else just as vague? It seems like a waste of money trying to police consenting adults having sex?!

Maybe they should put more resources into helping those who are trafficked.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/03/2014 23:17

There is a direct correlation between demand for prostitutes and the trafficking of women. Legalisation increases demand for prostitutes - this has been shown in the countries that have legalised.

The Swedish model decreases the demand. It changes society's attitudes towards buying women for sex - Sweden promotes sexual equality of women very strongly, so fewer men see it as acceptable to buy sex.

The Swedish policeman who was linked to on the AI thread didn't seem to think his time was being wasted.

WhentheRed · 02/03/2014 23:24

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