Newnight report on brothels

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

Worth £16 billion in Germany. Legal to "make it safer".

Interview with 22 yr old Hannah. 6 men per night, earns 100 to 1000 euros per night,

Talking about should it be illegal in the UK and the fact that brothels are safer than the streets. They have super brothels in Germany.

I do think you need to look at the worst case scenario, a future vision where it has perhaps been completely normalised and accepted.

If it's described as 'work' like any other job then it will be advertised as a 'career' and possibly taught in educational institutions if they find there is a shortage of suitable 'workers'. So your daughter might be encouraged to find a career as a prostitute by her teacher - and why not? It's completely acceptable and her choice, right? Why wait until she's 18 when the legal age of consent is 16? Legally there would be a conflict - if you say it's about freedom of choice.

The laws on prostitution are not based on any particular principles, just a vague way of dealing with what men think is unavoidable. It is completely avoidable. Nobody on the planet needs to see a prostitute. There are plenty of women quite willing to have sex for free. The difference is the accountability involved and the commitment and risk that individuals open themselves up to - this is a social contract and should never be a financial one. It is called a relationship.

It's a bit like why we don't allow the sale of body parts. It might seem 'sensible' in itself as a concept but the reality in a society where people are desperate or vulnerable is that it becomes far more risky because people go to greater lengths for the money. We have to look at the ultimate conclusion of where these legal changes take us as a society.

The purpose I want to achieve is harm reducton. I want whatever is safest for those in the industry and I don't want sexworkers having to work underground and trying to avoid police detection so they or their clients don't get arrested.

And law criminalizing women working for together just doesn't make sense to me.

I support decriminalizaton along with others including Amnesty Int, Human Rights Watch, the World Health Organisation, the Global Network of Sex Work Projects, UN HIV and the Law commission and MSP Jean Urquhart who would like to see decriminalizaton implemented in Scotland.

I agree with the principle adults should have the right to do as they please in private without interference. Noone is "entitled" to anything. Even if a client has the money a sexworker still has the right to refuse to see him you know.

Safer from the small minority of the population who might pose a risk?

Off the top of my head taxi drivers and corner shop owners are also at risk from a small minority of passengers who might pose a risk.

What do we do pass a law to criminalize every single person who pays for a taxi or buys something from a corner shop?

The comparison of women in prostitution with taxi drivers or corner shop owners simply demonstrates a complete failure to understand the dangers faced by women in prostitution. Do cab drivers or corner shop owners take their clothes off while they are working and expose themselves to bigger, stronger customers who feel entitled to use their bodies for the customer's gratification? Of course not. Petrol station attendants are locked inside their workplaces with metal grilles and security windows to protect them from danger. Women in prostitution however are expected to do everything that is the opposite of safety advice.

Prostitution is not a private activity. It seems the pimp lobby tries to have this both ways - it is just a job and it is a private activity. It cannot be both at the same time but in fact it is neither. It is a commercial activity that is not just a job and is certainly not private.

Flora the answer to making prostitution safer is simply to not do it at all.

Allowing someone to have sex with you in any power relationship will always end up with pain and suffering, whether physical, psychological or financial.

This power imbalance at the heart of a financial transaction for sex is why the Nordic model eveolved and this is what has to change. It has to change by simply stopping doing it.

Yes legalised prostitution could be made safer. Take brothels for example, you could have cctv in the corridors and even in the rooms! You could install a panic alarm in every room, and have security at the front door to prevent punters under the influence of drugs/alcohol from getting in.

The women should have to have mandatory test at the gum clinic and be offered counselling or an exit programme if they need it. They should also be tax registered be offered the same rights as other workers ie maternity leave, pensions etc.

To us sex is just a job, take away the morality surrounding sex and you are left with a contract between two adults, I don't want the government to say to the people who visit me that they are criminals. Many men who I've spoken with see a visit to a prostitute as 'cheaper in the long run'. Many have been or are in unhappy relationship or been stung by divorce where their wives have financially rinsed them. Yes its a convenience, I know this as a service provider, they will ring me on their lunch break, coming home from work or golf, or between travelling for work. Is there anything wrong with that?

Migsy you can't take away the morality surrounding paid sex. There are moral issues involved, they are related to equality, power and gender.

It's so much safer to just not do it at all. A comprehensive programme of exit options with counselling is a good idea though, that should be happening now. ;)

'cheaper in the long run' - oh god, the entitlement of those men. You know what's cheapest in the long run? Using your own damn hand.

"Let me make this simpler for you: how many of the "small minority of the population who might pose a risk" to the safety to those in prostitution are women? Are you struggling to concede that those who pose a danger to women in prostitution are men?"

Are you aware of the hashtag #whenantisattack?

It isn't just about the small minority who might potentially be violent, it's also about stigma and horrible things those opposed to sexwork might do and say.

For example if a prostitute in a small community is exposed she might end up having to move because of the harassment that follows.

"Taxi drivers. What safety measures are in place to protect taxi drivers? The passenger doors are locked and controlled by the driver. There are both grills and bullet proof glass to prevent any physical contact. CCTV cameras are in the car. The cars are monitored by GPS. Any physical contact is deemed an assault."

Exactly. While criminalizing everyone who pays for a taxi might be one "model" to adopt, another model would be to implement safety strategies like those above. The bullet proof glass wouldn't be put in as a precaution against the everyday taxi user but just incase someone who is violent wants to cause trouble or rob the driver.

What I'm trying to get at- it's not clients who are the problem. It's people who are violent and people who cannot follow rules (for example idiots who try removing a condom without being seen).

btw have you heard of the Ugly Mugs scheme? I think Mumsnet is supporting it. It's an app on Android where workers get alerts of details of clients not to take bookings from.

The stigma about being a sex worker, and having been a sex worker is still alive and well in countries where it is legalised such as Germany and the Netherlands. Exited women don't proudly put it on their CVs, which surely they would do if it was 'just a job'. I know several exited women in Germany, every single one of them has hidden it from family, friends and future employers as much as they have been able, for fear of blackmail and worse. The people who, ime, stigmatise prostitutes more than any other group are the men who use prostitutes. Go figure, men who use prostitutes must be antis according to filxiler.

So, tell me again about this legalised utopia for prostituted women, I'm all ears.

sexworker.org.au/Portals/0/documents/SafetyTipsforEscortWorkers.pdf

use of xylocaine (local anaesthetic) can disguise injuries

hmmm...

Germany after legalisation s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/index.html

but maybe decriminalisation is better
any evidence of that?

God I loathe all these "it's just sex between consenting adults" apologists for prostitution.

No, it is not. As if anyone chooses freely to have six different men humping away at them every night. And that argument completely ignores the power dynamics at play between men and women and the fact that women are having their bodies violated/penetrated in a way that men just do not during sex.

I do not want my children growing up thinking that it is perfectly ok and normal for men to go out and buy women's bodies for their entertainment.

The selling of body organs is not allowed or acceptable, so why should the selling of women's bodies be? Oh, I forgot, because it is the "human right" of the Menz to have sex on women's bodies.

Seriously makes me want to vomit.

What it comes down to is that men who would like to have sex on women who do not want them look at Sweden and they recoil in horror. When they look at Germany, the Netherlands, Australia or New Zealand, they feel the comfort that their perversions are normalised and can be satisfied at their whim.

When women or men who care about equality and dignity, particularly of those most vulnerable in our society, look at Germany, the Netherlands, Australia or New Zealand, they recoil in horror, even at the so-called research that supposed supports legalisation or decriminalisation. Documents like the the guidance linked by JuliaScurr are good examples of this. People who care about equality and dignity and who care about women's sexual autonomy are appalled at the thought that women need to apply topical anaesthetic to their genitals because they are being injured on a daily basis and recoil further that they are being advised not to do this because it could mask a more serious injury. And this is called a job like any other??

Seriously, how the fuck is that sex positive?

It's abuse-positive.

Hi Julia: how did you find the ST Stella link? I couldn't find it and had to resort upthread to quoting whole chunks!