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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Rape apologism (not a real word, sorry) on a MN thread!

226 replies

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/12/2013 13:56

Sorry - a thread about a thread, but I feel that input is needed from as many people as possible, to counter some of the ridiculous things one particular poster is saying. The woman the thread is about was so drunk she was blacking out, can't remember what happened, but is sore, so is pretty sure she had sex - and someone is saying this doesn't mean she was raped!

Here.

OP posts:
BasilCranberrySauceEater · 08/12/2013 23:07

Dunno.

Was all fired up on Friday when moderators closed that thread but have descended back into apathy again. Xmas Grin

GoshAnneGorilla · 08/12/2013 23:23

Trigger warning: discusses a rape

Can I just add for those claiming that such cases are a nightmare for the CPS, there was a very interesting documentary earlier this year, which looked at two cases traditionally thought as difficult to convict.

One involved a women who had gone out for NYE. Her friend had stood her up, so she decided to stay in the bar and carry on drinking. She got very drunk indeed. The bouncers, caring souls that they are, threw her out. CCTV showed her lying in the street, before getting up and staggering down an alley. This was where she was attacked, afterwards (IIRC, she managed to get home and woke up feeling very sore and that some bad had happened.

Fortunately, she reported to the police, they were able to obtain DNA samples and match them and CCTV in the club showed the rapist clearly watching her.

The evidence was sufficient that there was no way she would have been in a position to consent and the rapist was found guilty.

It's possible that there may be some CCTV footage of the woman in the OP, that would show she was not in a position to consent.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 00:03

Grin Basil

I'll see how easy it is to register and make a decision!

Beatrixparty · 09/12/2013 09:08

Gosh

When there is such good evidence as that, successful prosecutions are not difficult - the problem cases are when there a lack of such evidence -thus leaving the juries without enough to reach a guilty verdict.

catsrus · 09/12/2013 09:37

I had a close friend who was an alcoholic and I attended AA meetings to support her during her first few months - I heard stories from Airline pilots who had flown planes and did not remember doing so Shock. I learned that there was a difference between an alcohol induced blackout and passing out. It is perfectly possible to appear to be functioning and coherent to people around you but to engage in activities that you don't remember the next day.Some technical stuff on brains, memory and alcohol here pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-2/186-196.htm.

Like others on this thread I have been drunk and got into sexual situations that I regretted. Each time that happened I said 'no' to penetrative sex and that 'no' was respected by the men I was with, I have no doubt that had they continued on to have sex with me it would have been rape. I remember those incidents very well.

I have once experienced an alcohol induced blackout - I have no memory of parts of an evening when I evidently was very free with my consent at prolonged snogging with my SIL Confused. I believe I did it because enough family members have teased me about it over the years. I was not 'passing out drunk' cleared up all the party stuff and washed the glasses before going to bed. Would I, sober, snog my SIL? probably not. Did I consent to do it? everyone around me certainly believed I was consenting...

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 09:53

Oh well thats OK then. Clearly she wasnt raped because you snogged your SIL and have no memory of it. FFS. Would they then have raped you? Or would they have thought catrus is a bit more than merry, lets get her home?

Look at the actions of the man. This has nothing to do with what the woman did. He did not have to have sex with her. He engineered it so she was isolated from her friends and in his house. Alone. There was absolutely no need to do that. Ever.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 10:00

And sashh I read that thread on TSR fully last night. You rock! That was amazing.

catsrus · 09/12/2013 10:14

Sorry scallops I wasn't clear - I'm not saying she was not raped. From what I have read of that situation it looks to me like she was raped.

What I am saying is that alcohol induced blackouts are NOT the same as being comatose or falling about drunk (which is what some posters appear to be saying and I was reacting to that confusion). It is perfectly possible for someone to appear to be in full control of what they are doing but to not remember it. The lack of awareness of this difference confuses the whole debate.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 14:55

No it doesn't. Only if you ignore the behaviour of the rapist does it confuse matters.

snowshepherd · 09/12/2013 15:01

Scallop, I think catsrus is talking about not remembering consent or the sexual act. You are talking about a rapist.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 15:02

Yes. That is exactly what we are talking about. The actions of the rapist.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 15:03

Why do people keep insisting on turning it around on to what the woman did? It is the actions of the man that determines whether it is rape or not.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 15:05

Plus both scenarious catsrus described were when drunk people did something to other people, not had something happen to them.

snowshepherd · 09/12/2013 15:08

It's not turning it round. consenting sex does involve two people. You have to include both people. I'm not sure what is difficult to understand about that

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 15:14

But we aren't talking about consenting sex. We are arguing about degrees of drunkenness of the woman. It is ignoring the actions of the man. Would catsrus family and friends tried to have sex with her in her scenario? Does that seem even remotely likely?

snowshepherd · 09/12/2013 15:19

Are you saying that there is no 'consenting sex' within these 'degrees of drunkeness'?

catsrus · 09/12/2013 15:28

"Plus both scenarious catsrus described were when drunk people did something to other people, not had something happen to them." in both scenarios I was a willing participant. In the first scenario I remember stopping being willing and saying 'no'. Had I not been with decent blokes it might have ended up with something happening to me. In the second scenario I simply don't remember - I was apparently not 'off my head', certainly not trying to stop what was happening, and not falling about drunk. What if it had not been my SIL but my BIL I had been snogging? what if we were on our own? what if I had consented to going further?

I did something that I would not dream of doing while sober. I certainly was appearing to consent to what was happening to me. I simply don't remember. All I'm saying is that not remembering is not the same as having been passed out and unable to consent and that once alcohol is involved there can be blurred lines.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 15:45

I am saying it is the actions of the man that determines whether it is rape snowshepherd.

catsrus illustrates nicely here: "In the first scenario I remember stopping being willing and saying 'no'. Had I not been with decent blokes it might have ended up with something happening to me."

catsrus - you were also doing something out of the norm for you and most people. I would imagine that most of the people at the party would have recognised that.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 15:47

Sorry that last paragraph was referring to kissing your SIL.

I had meant the airline pilot scenario as one of the scenarios where a drunk person did something to endanger others, not have something happen to them.

snowshepherd · 09/12/2013 15:49

Scallop
Yes and the actions of both when it comes to consensual sex.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 16:04

And??

We aren't talking about consensual sex.

Do you feel entitled to have sex with a woman because she says yes regardless of her demeanour and state snowshepherd? Even in catsrus kissing SIL scenario there were indicators that she was drunk. Drunk enough to do things out of the ordinary.

catsrus · 09/12/2013 16:11

I think all I'm trying to say (badly I admit!) is that 'not remembering' does not necessarily mean 'not consenting' once alcohol is involved (which some messages in the thread seem to imply).

Alcohol is a poison which affects our memory and our judgment. Because someone does not remember consenting does not mean that they did not consent and appear to be in control of themselves. Because the pilot did not remember landing the plane does not mean they did not land it and appear to be in control of themselves. The whole issue of consent gets very muddy once alcohol is involved - we use it all the time to lower our inhibitions ('dutch courage') and many people are able to function apparently 'not very drunk' but not remember anything the next day.

snowshepherd · 09/12/2013 16:14

No entitlement to have sex. I also have the right to say no.
You are arguing from the point of view of a guaranteed rape. Everyone on this thread agrees to wrongness of that and that they should be dealt with.
The thread, I thought, had moved on to people's experiences/definitions of 'blackspots', drunken consent.

Scallop, just clear up, do you think you can consent and not remember?

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 16:31

"You are arguing from the point of view of a guaranteed rape." I don't really understand what you mean by that. I am saying that the actions of the man are more telling than the behaviour of the woman.

"Scallop, just clear up, do you think you can consent and not remember?" Why do you think that is so important? Do you think there are lots of women out there wanting to trick men into having sex with them so that they can cry rape? Because that is what it is coming over like. I think if someone is drunk enough that they can't remember there are plenty of indicators of that. Its just that rapists ignore those or don't care or in the case of the woman on TSR see it as a green light.

catsrus - you have no way of knowing whether they appeared to be in control of themselves and neither do they. Just as you have no way of knowing whether you appeared to be in control of yourself. The fact that you did somethig out of the ordinary would suggest not.

scallopsrgreat · 09/12/2013 16:37

I also think that if you wake up in the morning thinking that something has happened that you didn't consent to, you probably didn't consent to it.