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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Rape apologism (not a real word, sorry) on a MN thread!

226 replies

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/12/2013 13:56

Sorry - a thread about a thread, but I feel that input is needed from as many people as possible, to counter some of the ridiculous things one particular poster is saying. The woman the thread is about was so drunk she was blacking out, can't remember what happened, but is sore, so is pretty sure she had sex - and someone is saying this doesn't mean she was raped!

Here.

OP posts:
Beatrixparty · 06/12/2013 13:19

Mitchy1nge

The point does not relate to NCIS per se. it's this - Is it possible to consent when under the influence of drunk and then to forget ?

Mitchy1nge · 06/12/2013 13:22

I really do hope the woman from the thread about which the thread that this thread is about is ok. I hope she encountered people who gave at least a bit of a shit about her welfare.

Beatrixparty · 06/12/2013 13:23

LLF @ 13:18

Re: "Precisely.....etc etc

Straw man again - has anyone here said this. See this wiki page for description of straw man

snowshepherd · 06/12/2013 13:23

Passing out. Is completely the extreme. I think it is the drunk situations where there is difference of opinions. I'd imagine you would need a friend or someone else to tell you that you were passing out, probably the day after. I think that a rapist would divulge this to a woman

snowshepherd · 06/12/2013 13:24

Wouldnt

LurcioLovesFrankie · 06/12/2013 13:24

Again, turn it round! Ask yourself under what circumstances you'd be prepared to put yourself through the sheer hell of a rape investigation and the subsequent trial. I'd argue as a woman only in the circumstances where you thought to yourself "even though I can't remember, it would be so totally out of character for me to have had sex in these circumstances, with a man like this, that I cannot believe I would have consented." And thought this with utter conviction.

NCISaddict · 06/12/2013 13:25

The thing is I used to know men who were perfectly capable of 'getting it up' when virtually drunk to the point of passing out so the assumption does not always apply. They may well not have been capable of an orgasm but they were very capable of an erection. This is why I advise my sons not to have sex with women who are drunk, I think they are safer that way. I do not, for one moment, think that they would force themselves on a woman or indeed neglect to ask but that deciding when a woman is too drunk to consent/remember they have consented is too risky a call for them to make. Better safe than sorry in both cases.

snowshepherd · 06/12/2013 13:26

Then just go to the police. Let them investigate

LurcioLovesFrankie · 06/12/2013 13:28

I know what a straw man argument is. But this isn't, it's a reductio ad absurdum. Because no rape investigation or trial ever takes place without someone making a complaint to the police. Sex people are happy with, or mildly regret but chalk up as a bad experience, or suspect might be rape but don't think enough people would believe them do not lead to people reporting.

snowshepherd · 06/12/2013 13:29

NCIS
Did you find out about these men, during sex with them? Did you ever think that these paralytic men were too drunk for sex, despite the errection?

Mitchy1nge · 06/12/2013 13:33

Is it possible to consent when under the influence of drunk and then to forget ? this sounds like something you should ask a neurologist or a habitual drinker or someone who is both, I don't know, is it possible?

NCISaddict · 06/12/2013 13:33

Probably not at the time, looking back on it now with the benefit of 30 years of added experience ,yes they almost certainly were too drunk to make a rational decision.

snowshepherd · 06/12/2013 13:39

Mitchy
I know it's possible to consent and not remember in other areas of life

Mitchy1nge · 06/12/2013 13:45

the point is not really is it hypothetically possible to be well up for sex one minute and completely forget all about it the next, the point is did someone not care whether or not the woman in this situation was well up for it - or has a crime been committed, are others at risk if he is not apprehended

Beatrixparty · 06/12/2013 13:45

Mitchy1nge

We are a nation of habitual drinkers - I would think it very likely to find a few on a randomly selected jury, to pass on their experiances.

Going by my own experience, it is possible to forget. NCIS and maybe snowshepherd, it seems to me, would also say yes.

It's been good chatting with you - I'm off to work now. Bye.

snowshepherd · 06/12/2013 13:49

Mitchy
Are you talking about a scenario where consent has been given and whether the other person should take that on face value.

Brenslo · 06/12/2013 13:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MistressDeeCee · 06/12/2013 13:53

If consent was not given it is rape. If a man has sex with a drunk incoherent woman he is well aware is unable to give consent, then he is a rapist. Alcohol is not a mitigating 'free for all' circumstance. That's without going into the court side of it..as if that changes anything; there's no law that says if a woman is drunk then that's taken as 'given consent'.

Brenslo you've jumped so heavily onto the bandwagon your feet are sticking through the bottom. As I read it, you are in a longwinded 'I think I'm oh so clever & alternative way', on this thread being nasty & picky with women about a situation that is nasty to women.

What's this point about 'none of us knows?'. I mean, that's stating the obvious isn't it? That being the case I guess, this thread should be deleted; most Mumsnet threads involve situations where we aren't present.

'If that upsets anyone, hard luck'.

That'd be the day. Lord save us from keyboard warriors with a misogynist/misogynist influencedpseudo axe to grind who get off on making unplesant subjects even more unpleasant Hmm

MistressDeeCee · 06/12/2013 14:04

I agree with Mitchy

I hope the rape victim has found sympathy and support in RL, rather than self-appointed judges who feel it was enirely her fault, she deserved it for being drunk hence, so what if she was raped..but as the mealy-mouthed hypocrites they are, won't come right out and just say it straight.

If a man was paralyytic laid flat out & then someone came along and robbed him of money - & that person was caught - there'd be no qualms in deeming the perpetrator a thief. He stole from victim - end of story. There wouldn't be cries of 'oh the victim was drunk, so he deserved to be robbed'...

Original poster
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 06/12/2013 14:06

That is an excellent analogy, MistressDeeCee.

OP posts:
snowshepherd · 06/12/2013 14:11

Mistress
We all a agree with the being robbed scenario/being raped.
I thought we were talking about an analogy where the man was so drunk he handed over his wallet willingly to a stranger and whether that would be classed as consent to hand over the wallet.

snowshepherd · 06/12/2013 14:12

*being raped is wrong

Mitchy1nge · 06/12/2013 14:15

"Mitchy Are you talking about a scenario where consent has been given and whether the other person should take that on face value."

I feel like saying 'what are you chatting mate' but, yeah, what are you chatting? We are talking about a situation in which someone might have been abducted by a stranger and raped so ideally an investigation would be underway by now - to identify the stranger and determine whether or not a crime has been committed, and if there is a risk to the public.

LurcioLovesFrankie · 06/12/2013 14:20

Thankyou, MistressDeeCee for getting the thread back on track! Basically, everything you've said seems spot on.

Mitchy1nge · 06/12/2013 14:20

and then I suppose at some point someone will decide whether he might have done something seriously wrong or whether she could have seemed up for it and in a fit state to engage in some shagging

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