The Feminist Pub (continued).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight.

YY, true.

I do think general attitudes have got better. I notice it when I'm chatting to people off MN. On here, even if people disagree with you and do believe that it's natural to lie about porn use, they're familiar with the debate on it all. I know people in RL where you'd have to start from the beginning with discussing the ethics of porn and whether it's normal to lie in a relationship and so on, and it'd be exhausting.

Another work do today.

Having to start from scratch and tell people why gender stereotyping is no good over and over again -

Fucking stupid Thomas book.

Emily is a beautiful emerald green engine.
Rosie has lots of pretty freckles.
Madge is not the prettiest face on Sodor.

That sounds infuriating, upto.

I hope you are back from it fast and relaxing.

doctrine ... mmm, not sure I ever thought Thomas was the oasis of gender equality in a hard world, but tha sounds shit.

I know but this is an updated Thomas book, they've introduced a lot of female characters - and those are still in the descriptions.

There. Is. No. Need.

Upto, I have to honest and say I would probably not bother about educating people on a night out - just too infuriating when I want to be having a good time. Hope you enjoyed some of it anyway.

The 'porn' thread was quite sad really, on so many levels.
I know of many a relationship that is based on lies and deceit and both parties seem to buy in to that. Astonishingly no, it usually seems to be the woman who has adopted the role of turning a blind eye to whatever, whereas he just jolly well does as he pleases... . There is still such a power imbalance in a lot of relationships, and it's not often tipped in favour of the woman IME.

Thomas is just... meh. I am v relieved that none of our boys really got into the stories (much as DH tried to indoctrinate them as he liked the book as a boy). I know it's no excuse, but they are old and I just cannot get too exercised about it.
Apologies if I repeat myself, but it always makes me laugh that my dad who dislikes made-up, 'high maintenance' women with some fervour, to this day talks about two of our (female) friends who attended our wedding: both v pretty young women at the time, one blond, one brunette, both very much made up, nails done, high heels, glossy mane etc etc, you get the picture. Girls are only memorable if they comply to the standard idea of 'beauty' and if they are 'girly' and flatter any old goat gentleman.
I love my father btw but he is a very strange concoction of contradictions...

No, I figured it was updated because of the existence of female characters other than Annie and Clarabel.

Anabel and Clarabel only get to be pulled around and moan a lot - just like real females then

I remember that.

It didn't help that my little brother was a 'Thomas', so read into it.

(Bless him, he's lovely, but he didn't need that bit of gender stereotyping!)

Guess who bust a gut today to get/wrap/deliver card/presents to nursery/school/nanny?

NOT DH...

Christmas is definitely WifeWork in this house, but I cannot bear to not do it. I luffs Christmas .
So I am at me doing it and not him, but I am actually enjoying myself.
V confusing.
More nails in my Bad Feminist Coffin. Damn.

Hols now!

Work do actually very enjoyable.

As for educating people - I don't start it, but if they do I will be angry with myself for a long time if I don't speak up. Best to get it over and done with than to muse on it forever.

Glad you enjoyed your work do, upto!

My boys are obsessed with Thomas, I know it's pretty shit for female characters... I always quite liked Annie and Clarabel, they got Thomas out of trouble when his handbrake failed didn't they? saddo

I actually don't much like Sophia the First, which is what they're also watching at the moment. Just don't like that the stepsister is mean and jealous, but the stepbrother is fun and gallant.

Thomas - I've never got over how they bricked up Henry. Very Dodgy on many grounds. And fancy calling someone fat.

Pacific - I don't think it is about who does what per se. It's about an equitable distribution through the year. Also, about whether you are writing Christmas cards, mulled wine in hand, and enjoying yourself or whether you feel pressure and stress.

For example, DH wouldn't write many cards if left to his own devices. But I like sending them, so I write them. But I leave his close family to him.

Could we change the subject for a moment and talk about women and taking up space? It is really bothering me at the moment and this seemed the space where people would be most likely to understand and be willing to overthink it .

I have had to tell myself that I need to hide any threads about buggies on public transport because they always make me feel like a horrible person for existing and needing to use it (dyspraxia and no peripheral vision in my left eye mean that I would be an unsafe driver so I spare the roads my presence). The dyspraxia also means that I find folding a buggy really difficult. I am also unexpectedly but delightedly pg with DC3 which means that I may, horror of horrors, possibly need to use a double buggy which makes me THE WORST in terms of buggies on public transport (maybe I will just hide until DC3 can walk).

However, I have noticed on these threads that there is always a contingent who boast about how they had four children and a buggy and managed to fold the buggy (by magic presumably) and fit themselves and said children into one seat thus taking up the least amount of space possible. I have nothing against such pride; I have felt proud of myself for only taking up one seat with a toddler, baby in sling, and a bump. But I think there is something wrong in that everyone seems to feel that if you dare to take up any space for you and your children, you are an entitled cow.

And I wonder if it is related to the way men on public transport tend to spread their legs while women squinch themselves into as tiny a space as possible. Is this because women are taught that their existence is somehow an inconvenience to everyone around them (which ties into women and weight but that's a different subject) and so they need to mitigate that inconvenience as much as they can and always accommodate everyone except themselves?

And then this extends to women being the primary caregivers to their children mostly. So does it follow that the children are seen as an extension of the woman rather than people in their own right and thus if the children take up space, that is seen as the woman taking up more space than she should? Or the woman inconveniencing other people as her convenience is seen as utterly trivial and/or entitled?

Sorry this is so long but as I said at the top, it has really really been bothering me so any thoughts would be immensely helpful.

Interesting, Terraria, I have had thoughts like that but also the converse - that whenever you see a man with a small child he is so proud of himself for doing it that he expects the whole world, especially women, to put his child at the centre of the universe (not minding todders kicking balls into the middle of your picnic for instance - I do mind, can you take him over there to that big space with no people please, and stop glancing smugly at me, waiting for me to congratulate you on being out with your child? Yes, I have children too, that means sadly I have less time for yours pratting about in my sandwiches, not more)

"bad feminist" GRRRRRRRRR

stop beating yourselves up with the imaginary "bad feminist", like tittering guilt over eating chocolate, "Oh I am awful" - like there is a FEMINIST POLICE like the DIET POLICE

If we got away from guilt we could be clearer about, yes, maybe it is fucking unfair, maybe it is better all the same to do the christmas shit than not do it, no you are not bad but yes it is unfair (if it is, of course, I don't know, I don't live with you)

Terraria - I think on that bus thread, the thing is people are responding to the idea of someone being more entitled than a wheelchair user to a space legally allocated to a wheelchair user. I don't think it's necessarily related to taking up space 'as a woman' but somehow thinking that the masses of mothers with buggies should never be inconvenienced, so the disabled should be nearly every time they travel. The disabled are so massively outnumbered that the supposed 'fair' first come, first served is actually massively unfair.

I think also most people are sympathetic to the idea that mothers with disabilities might have special reasons to be less flexible, but that is different from the vast majority of able bodied, fit, well mothers and fathers who simply don't want to be put out at all.

However, I do agree with the idea that there can be competitive 'I had it so hard and never complained and could breastfeed a baby at the same time as carrying a buggy up a busy escalator' types. There is definitely an element of the mother martyr stuff goes on.

I notice the 'man space' thing a lot too. I'm never sure whether it is to do with women being encouraged not to take up space, or men feeling entitled to take up space though. Having seen a few 'my balls are bigger than yours' leg spreading contests on the tube, I think sometimes it's the latter.

Penguins, it wasn't specifically that thread. I agree that wheelchair users get priority. I always get off when I see one so they can have as much space as they need except for once when the stupid driver wouldn't let me.

Anyway, I was using those threads in general as a jumping off point to talk aboyt something I notice when I am out and about. I am always dreadfully paranoid about coming across as entitled whenever I am out with a buggy or when I am out in general. I really do try as hard as I can to disappear and not take up space at all.
I am just trying to explore why I or any woman might feel that way. And I tend to be paranoid about it because dyspraxia is a very hidden disability and I really don't think people in general are sympathetic to ones like that especially when women have them because women aren't supposed to be clumsy.

Congratulations on your pregnancy.

I think it sounds very likely, about women squishing themselves up. Something I've certainly noticed is that if a woman is out with a baby, a lot of people seem to assume she cannot be in a hurry for anything and she has all the time in the world. I've not seen anything really awful this year, but last year I remember someone waiting patiently in Debenhams because everyone was streaming in though the door and simply not thinking 'hey, I could stand aside and let this lady with a pushchair out'. And I stood aside, and someone promptly tutted and shoved round me.

(Realize I'm commenting on something no doubt extremely familiar to everyone else there.)

I think we have a big culture of sneering at 'mummies' as being entitled and so on, and for some people that just doesn't fit with disability at all, so they don't imagine the two things coexist. (By people I mean twits, obv.)

Terraria - have you seen this?

Penguins - Christmas is wifework here too, but this is mostly because they don't celebrate Christmas in DH's country. His first Christmas ever was only 15 years ago, first one in the UK 9 years ago and he just doesn't really get it. Especially buying the DDs lots of presents, because he has no experience of Christmas as a child.

He does try though, and has come up with some thoughtful ideas for presents for my family.

The major advantage of this, of course, is that we don't have to buy anything for his side of the family and never have to argue about whose family to spend Christmas with!!

Terraria, I wanted to share this, which I saw yesterday:

The Evolution of Human Empathy.

I think anyone of us who has ever pushed a buggy has experienced what you mentioned. I remember getting abuse from a man for not getting far enough out of the way when I stepped aside to let him pass. I was laden down with shopping and had a newborn in a sling. It really upset and angered me, as he never once thought to get out of my way instead. In fact, it is learned behaviour for me not always to automatically step aside to let people past, that is completely conditioned into me. But I think that has to do not just with being a woman, but also coming from an ethnic minority too.

Wouldn't it be great if we could all display more empathy towards each other? I remember being so grateful when a grandmother, mother and brood of children made sure I got a seat on a crowded tube, when I was very pregnant. The other day I gave up my seat to a family with small children, so that they could all sit together.

I too get annoyed with men whose bollocks are so big that they have to spread their legs as wide as possible, and taking up both armrests. We are taught to sit with our legs folded up or crossed, I guess to stay "modest" and in turn it takes up as little space as possible. Need my toddler to fill his nappy in these cases .

Annie, yes, I have! That's exactly it. But my hips are naturally big so I can't shrink enough.

LRD, if other mummies are anything like me, they do their best to plan to do things so they won't be in a hurry and thus possibly be in anybody's way. So mummies may not be in a hurry but they work at it or if they are me they do.

That's an interesting link Annie. I find that I have to practically force gifts on my mum. And even then you have to give her things that are "oh it's only a little thing, it's not expensive". On one hand that's something my side of the immediate family suffers from (though there are some in the extended family who suffers a bit less from it ), but my mum seems to particularly abstain from buying things or accepting things for herself.