The Feminist Pub (continued).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight.

Hmmm, sorry, my last response was rather literal. I am very tired. And rude, too, it would seem since I omitted to say congratulations to Terraria. Congratulations!

I think it is an issue that many women feel in life generally - one of not taking up space, of keeping their head down. It's not something that, at a personal level, I've ever much struggled with. I am tall, and as I mentioned some time recently, I used to enjoy wearing massive heels into meetings and making the middle aged important men (worked in the City) physically look up to me. I'm also quite mouthy when people do that 'push past the women with kids' thing - I say a very icily polite "you're welcome" directly to them. The one time someone rounded on me I said "Oh, I'm so sorry, I thought you'd said thank you for letting you through". Wasn't much they could say to that. I think my physical size has probably been a major factor in my experience of this in life - I am basically 'man tall' (i.e. average man, I'm not 6'2!).

BUT I agree that this is very much a gendered issue and the fact it hasn't been a big one in my life doesn't mean that it isn't for many, many women.

What I experience more of is the general intolerance of children and the projection of that intolerance towards the mother. Fathers are generally treated like royalty who must be doing 'special duty' to do childcare. Mothers are directly responsible if their child inconveniences someone in some minor way, like being slow through a doorway.

Why aren't buses made big enough for all the buggies and wheelchairs? Why are the people who have to get off a bus so a disabled person can fit on the mothers with small children? Why not the single people? Thankfully I don't have to use buses but folding and unfolding a heavily loaded buggy with one or more sleeping children in it is hard, much harder than a single person standing up and making room. Surely it should be possible to have bus seats that can easily fold out of the way if more space is needed for wheelchairs and buggies. Strikes me this isn't about entitled mothers, it's about bad bus design.

Thanks, Penguins and everybody for the congratulations. We had the 20 week scan yesterday and all is well.

Penguins, the general intolerance of children and the projection of that onto the mother is sort of what I was trying to get at through the medium of space. I wonder if there is a kind of vicious circle thing going on. Mothers who have children do take up more space because we are more people, but because our society doesn't quite regard children as people, it looks at them as the extension of the mother and thus the space the children take up is regarded as the mother taking up space which she is not entitled to so if they so much as squeak, it is regarded as the mother making that irritating noise and because it is the mother making the noise, she has control. So people are intolerant because they don't see a mother with two children as three people in total but rather one person with 2 four limbed appendages that sometimes make horrible noises or take up space.

For some reason though, people are able to see fathers with two children as three separate beings and so they can empathise more with the difficulty of managing two people other than oneself. Which in turn is why they get treated much better.

And upon writing this out, I think I have realised why children may be seen to be an extension of mothers, it's because we gestate them. For nine months they are a part of our bodies and a pregnant bump does take up space. But children are always physically separate beings from their fathers even if they're in slings .

Seriously and not in a self-deprecating way, does that make any sense?

Also, thank you all so much for discussing this with me. It is really helping to tease out the whys and wherefores.

Oooh, you are about the same stage with your surprise third baby as me. I'm, er, 22 weeks. Might be 23, I lose count a bit . Glad all was well with the scan.

I agree with a great deal of what you've said above. I'm not sure it's the gestation point that makes people see children as extension of the mother though. I think it's more social than biological. Things like:

• childcare= women's work.
• 'women and children' lumped together as a category of property (it was alarmingly recent that a woman leaving her husband might resaonably expect her children would live with her);
• women and children lumped together as a weak or frail class.

Also, they are linked together by many popular derogatory remarks - throws like a girl, cries like a girl - and traditionally a woman held the child's title of Miss until marriage and validation by a man, not adulthood (as a master became mister).

I think that there are a lot of strands that mean children-with-mother are seen and responded to differently to men with children. The first one on my list probably being the biggest.

I lose count too. I think when you have two to look after already, you don't tend to be as obsessive about knowing.

As to the biology and social conditions, I'm not a proponent of biological determinism or anything, but I sometimes wonder how much the simple fact of women doing the actual gestating and birthing of babies does affect the social.

DH and I are both trying very very hard to avoid remarks like those you talk about.

legoplayingmum, DH thinks buses ought to be set up like the London Overground. Fewer seats, but more standing room. I think I agree.

I do agree that buses should be able to provide for everyone. It is about bad bus design. On the thread, it was pointed out though that wheelchair users campaigned hard for years for wheelchair spaces. There isn't such a thing as buggy spaces, and if we want them we need a campaign for them, not to prevent wheelchair users from boarding.

I am sure the biological does affect the social. The biological facts of birthing and feeding no doubt affected how the social developed. And, of course, if you want to breastfeed now it often makes sense, based on biology, for the mother to be primary carer for a young baby. I think that then sets a pattern. Didn't help that, after all the legislation on sex discrimination, etc, we still insist on treating fathers like an add on in terms of maternity leave, etc, whih again set a pattern.

Congratulations to both Terraria and Penguins!

I totally agree that "why can't buses accommodate everyone?" is the best angle!

Now I am going to run around like a mentalist with my shirt over my head because I have finished work [run run run]

HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE

Bad day at the office here and vomiting child at home - here's hoping IF we all have to get it, we get in out of the day before Christmas Day .

I'll be brief because I don't have the nervous energy to really get down properly what I mean:

• That bus thread brought out the worst in people, didn't it?
• Yy to 'competitive' making oneself small - stupid really (I've done it too of course)
• Double buggies - I used to walk everywhere (not London, so was a bit more achievable) and also made sure I had a double buggy I could fold with ease and lift on my own without rupturing my CS scar. Lightweight is the way to go IMO - Mountain Buggies are built like tanks and weigh about the same.
• Men/women relative taking up of space/size and shrinking. I've been thinking about this quite a lot: I am of average height (5'6'') and all my adult life have been a size 12-16 - I feel I have more 'presence' when there is slightly 'more' of me which is strange, because I like how I look the most when I am at the slimmer end of that size spectrum. I have broad shoulders and not a girly voice. All this helps to 'allow' me to take up space.

The sitting with legs akimbo that some med do is just rude and inconsiderate (are they trying to show off their dick?) and I find saying politely 'Excuse me, could you move a bit' works, but I do have to ask

Oh there is so much that makes me go : my shrinking mother (although to be fair, my dad is shrinking too ), her inability to see any value or worth in herself unless she is doing something for somebody else etc etc.

See, now I waffled after all - you lot make me!
Sorry.

Wow that's a great link Annie.

Pacific - sympathy - hard times at the office + vom-child here too this week - thank goodness we are now coming out the other side (although who knows where vom will strike next - DUM DUM DUMMMM!)

The other advantage to the shrinking women, apart from leaving more space for men, is that they have to OBSESS so hard about self-denial, they have no time to foment rebellion.
I am quite disgusted with myself, at the age of 42, at the relative proportions of the years of my prime that I have spent thinking about:

1- trying to be smaller
2- fomenting revolution
3- inventing something else as cool and useful as a post-it note

Projects 2 and 3 have got ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE and I can't help resenting project 1 for this (although having babies doesn't help either)

Ooooh, I've always dreamt of coming up with something as simple but revolutionary as the post-it note! Or a paper clip or something.
But nada.
Vair disappointing.

And tonight is a write-off too...

More thoughts on space and resources...

I am conditioned to think that when resources are scarce, I will lose out; when grunt work has to be done, it will come to me*. Therefore I experience all sorts of actually mute and neutral objects as a personal attack on me, my time, my personal resources - eg, an unwashed dish in the kitchen is not a dish, but a sneering order to "WASH ME, BITCH". (the person who left it there didn't mean that - (s)he just didn't have time to deal with it - but the message that comes to me is "YOUR TIME DOESN'T MATTER")

For this, and other reasons. I absolutely twitch at work when managers say things like, "so, can we create a tracking spreadsheet which records -" because what it means is "YOU do some tedious data entry". And it makes me cross, and anxious, because I don't have time to do more shit, and if I don't leave at 5.40 I won't see my babies and OH MY GOD I WILL NEVER WRITE A BOOK OR INVENT SOMETHING AS COOL AS A POST-IT IF I SPEND ALL MY TIME DICKING ABOUT IN EXCEL FOR NO REASON

and I HATE HATE HATE asking people to do things because I project. I imagine they will feel like me. Every time you say "I need", or "I want" in my world, what my experience of those statements by people is, I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING or I HAVE TO GIVE SOMETHING UP (often SPACE. I shared a room with my sister. the three of us sat at the table on a bench for 2. Space - personal space with no one else in it - was at a premium. Premium stuff didn't come to me.)

Now I am working more with Californians, who work for a very rich company, I notice how relaxed and casual they are when they ask me, or others, to do things. things that they prefer, or would quite like. It is as if there is no act of aggression in asking for there is automatically enough to go round.
Is it to do with space? Wealth? Just being more charming?

*DISCLAIMER: only in a whiny first world way. I mean obviously I am rich and lazy and over indulged in global terms, I just mean my brother was never expected to wash up and always got listened to

Pheeeew everyone, I'm exhausted. Really need a feminist pub right now. And I just clicked on a link I thought was innocent and it was this guy saying the most misogynist shit, and no one cared.

GAHHHHH

Would like to have an actually relaxing Christmas season please.

or for everyone

Hello!

I would like to stop thinking for a bit so am distracting myself baking some sourdough bread. And some more mincepies. You can never have too many mince pies.

Stayed up late reading - a book with no chapters and one thing leads into another and there is simply no good place to stop and before you know it it's past midnight.

Here is a rather depressing summary of the year in sexism.

And did anyone see Lucy Powell in the Sun last week? Good on her for coming out fighting though. I think they've at least been a bit embarassed by their shit research, if sadly not by the underlying sexism plus idiocy which led to it (you know, thinking to check whether there might be a reason other than boozy lunches, like ill health or maternity why an MP might not be voting).

Lalalalalalala!
Nope, there is nothing depressing to be thinking about so shan't open link; I am in full-blown Christmassy denial.
All's well with the world
My tree is decorated, we have a child over for a sleep-over, DS2 has stopped vomiting for 36 hrs and nobody else has started.

We ARE going to have relaxed Christmas, mainly because nobody is coming to ours and we are not going to anybody's

I love grown-up book with no chapters or pictures and reading until you know it's too late - I hope you enjoyed it, Penguins.
I watched Graham Norton and Father Ted's Christmas Special last night and almost weed myself laughing! DH was out which was a shame because I would have liked laughing with someone.

I have one more half-day to work (Chrismas Eve morning), then I'm off for 6 days

Did I say already, all's well in the world?

That was LordCopper with the book Pacific . I do not read books without chapters at the moment. In fact, I like those double line paragraph space things that give me obvious stopping points. DD2 was up three times in the night and awake early (God bless DH, he whisked her away). Her sleep has gone to pot the last fortnight or so.

Ok, here is something nice and Christmassy. We popped into town today and DD1 (4.5) announced that she wanted to buy a present for someone who doesn't get many. So we bought a child's present for the drop box appeal in the shopping centre. I was really proud she'd thought of it by herself. Hhmmm, maybe that sounds like a boast? Not meant to, meant it in a 'season of goodwill' type way.

Oh, sorry, I do get confused easily, oops .

Penguins, that IS lovely and not a boast and yes, very Season of Goodwill-y that looks a bit wrong

Half of the sourdough gone. Yum yum yum.

Going to read another of those books with no chapters. They are sort-of chick lit in a different language (generally about lovely young women with or without many suitors but so well-observed) and I love them, though I haven't found any English chick lit that I like...

I have to confess a weakness for Marian Keyes although her style of humour gets a bit samey after a while

I read "sushi for beginners" and was not too impressed, but I remember thinking the owl jokes were good.

Do you have a sourdough starter bubbling away at all times then LordCopper. I am quite jealous as I love sourdough. I tried once, but it was so needy that I gave up after about a fortnight. It's enough work having two small children (and soon three, eek) without my food being demanding of my attention!

I know what you mean about the sour dough being needy. I went through a phase in the summer of making sour dough. And then I lost interest and just stuck the whole culture in the fridge. Last week I decided I wanted to start making it again (and also the bloody jar was too big and taking up too much valuable space in the fridge) so I revived it and here we go again. You could just take a few tablespoons and leave them in a jam jar in the fridge for months. I like my homemade sourdough bread but I never like shop ones. They are always just too sour...

I made sourdough bread once from a starter a friend gave me. She makes v good German stylee bread. My bread was like a brick. 5 times I tried.
Now I used yeast. Like any sane person.

I feel better since I found out that sourdough is just using the yeasts in the air and is not in fact magic which is what I thought it was .

The Marian Keyes book about the abusive man was good - A Charming Man? Something like that.

Yes, I think I needed to get over that initial hump of the phase when it seems so temperamental. I was always worried it was too warm, or too cold, or I'd kill it before it got started.

Then I read a novel by Sarah Moss called Nightwaking where the main character is living on an island and has to make her own bread (this isn't a spoiler I promise) and someone asks if she used to at home. She gives this speech about how it's a total waste of time and this was why bakeries grew up as one of the first trades. And the sourdough was being sooooo fecking needy and I just thought "Yes, it is an empowered feminist stance to just throw the bloody thing in the bin. It's not giving up, it's a feminist stance of empowerment".

Did I mention that I'm not great at quitting things I've started and admitting defeat? I was quite proud of my intellectual rationalisation of doing so

Cross post Pacific. I get creeped out by the whole idea of yeasts in the air.

I do make quite good bread in the bread maker though.