The Feminist Pub (continued).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight.

that thread is terrifying but it is good for that stuff to be out there. It is in people's heads - like the OP's husband's head, and a fair few on the thread itself - so it is really good to get it all out there, have a look at it, and maybe, who knows, change some minds.

I have a feeling (this might be a bit rose-tinted) that without resources like MN that allow a lot of different people to speak their minds, that OP would just be sitting on her own, feeling cross, not sure whether she is being ridiculous or not because this does seem to be something that her husband is very confident in expecting. I know I put up with a lot of crap before mn (with different men from my current dp, may I add) because I just didn't have anyone to talk to except other women who didn't know they could say no either, and men who didn't want women to start saying no.

Consciousness Raising in action

V true, mildred

Is this the right place to ask:
Does anyone know if Lottie dolls have a house?
(following on from the Barbie Dream Castle / Father Christmas debacle I have moaned about on here)

I haven't seen any on Amazon when I was looking through all their stuff - it'd be there if it was available I'm sure

God, I have caught up with that thread (not every post, but the over view) and it is hideous. The fact that so many people don't see, or don't want to see, any bigger context or considerations than a cute family tradition.

It reminds me of when I first knew DH and he played cricket. MIL was genuinely that I wouldn't go along and hang around for the day watching. She said that, when her family was little, the wives and kids would all 'make a day of it' with the wives making sandwiches, etc. She kept saying it was good fun and a chance to all see your friends. She just couldn't comprehend that I wouldn't base my social life around hanging around watching whilst DH and the men 'did stuff'.

She has long since given up on me as a feminist nightmare woman. At the moment I am doing ok because I'm a SAHM for a bit, but I have quite a few previous strikes to my name!

According to my mum I should not be planning to read on Christmas Day as I will be too busy. Dh does glory cooking and I will happily let him take over. Dd will have a pile of new Lego and I will read.

There's only 3 of us so I have no idea what I am supposed to be doing but my mother was very shocked that I am contemplating a relaxed enjoyable day, not getting all stressed about gravy an shit like that.

Oh, I am SO looking forward to an enjoyable, relaxed Christmas Day - this is mainly facilitated by nobody coming to ours so it will be Just Us. Yippee!
I think M+S will cater to a lot of our Christmas needs...

I know nuffink about dolls, Lottie, or otherwise, sorry.

Just been out to buy a lego set and interfered in someone else's shopping. Told the shop assistant that it was great their shop don't do the "boys' toys girls' toys" thing, but that his advice to the other shopper could be less gender stereotyping. I never used to be so bold before MN. OK so maybe I was, but less well-informed...

Can someone do a link to this thread? I can't seem to find it.

We are all going out for Christmas dinner.

Scone if you really want to torture yourself it's quite high up in AIBU. But don't do it!

I'm going to make meringue. Just so you know.

Thanks, LordCopper, I found it. And I see your point.

Just thinking about it

I don't give a shit about gender roles at Christmas. the rest of the year I'm like a dog with a bone about them.
But I am looking forward to being Mum, and doing things the way Mum did, and I want DH to do the man stuff. Because it's a link with the past and makes me feel like a proper grown up. A proper woman in fact.

Christmas has don ethis to me, but I guess that's the way a lot of non feminists feel all the time. Weird and unsettling to not e a proper Mum/woman/man. I never really understood that feeling befoe even though I knew it, iykwim. Interesting.

I mean to say I see your point about not torturing myself.

DH does almost all the cooking in our house and has for most of our marriage. I do have certain dishes I specialize in for the holidays mainly due to the fact that he is a Yankee and I am from the South so we have this cultural divide for Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners.

But I do sew, and I am fairly good at it. I don't have the patience for making clothes anymore (although my best ffriend and I made my first grandchild's christening dress), but I still do home decorating sewing, curtains, cushion covers, etc.

Mildred, the thing I like best about MN is what you said about really getting to see inside other people's heads.

You are privy to so many other views that you aren't in real life and it can open your mind to all the other possibilities out there.

For eg, some people grow up with the defined roles and it is what they have been immersed in - the chances are that those women/men who don't move away or move in different social/work circles as they get older will meet other people who share their upbringing and viewpoint - and so it perpetuates.

MN is so diverse with women from all walks of life, SAHM/ft work, abusive relationships etc and you get such an understanding of people's motivations and aspirations - as well as being able to tap into other people's coping mechanisms and mindsets. You realise that you're not alone and that everyone has a 'game face' - lots of women who you would look at on rl and envy their self belief and presence express on here that even they experience self doubt at times (for eg). This, to me, is inspirational because it means we can at least begin to believe that we can all be that person -or strive to be at least.

I love that someone can post with their gripe about husband going to the pub/not cooking, and then a whole range of different viewpoints are presented - even if the OP still goes along with her husband's view, she's at least had her mind opened a wee bit to the possibility that things don't always have to be that way and she can make the changes in her life that she deserves.

(Hugely long rambly post, sorry - but I hope it makes sense!!)

YY Sal about feeling like a proper 'mum' too. (I don't cook, I'm shit at it!), but I like to be a mum at home.

I'm a strong, independent woman to the rest of the world, but to my husband and children I'm their wife and mum.

"I'm a strong, independent woman to the rest of the world, but to my husband and children I'm their wife and mum."

I am not content to be my husband's wife or my children's mother. I want to be seen also as a strong independent person by them (and by the rest of the world). I'm not satisfied with anything less. Am I too demanding? After all, that is what I am.

Now I'm going to go and make that meringue. And pastry for mince pies. I love shortcrust pastry.

Oooh, I just can't do pastry. My mum still makes our mince pies . Tis ridiculous, I am good cook, honest.

I think my kids I want them to just see me as mummy at the moment. The oldest is only 4, they don't really need any other understanding of me. This will change as they get older though. I would feel the same about how they see DH.

My husband, yes, I want him to see me as wife, a mum, and a strong independent person.

Not too demanding, no - what I am trying to say (cack-handedly!) is that I am always that woman, but I don't feel I have to project it at home like I do outside. My family know who I am because that's who I am - to the outside world I have to push it more.

Yes, that's a good point. At home you are just 'you'. Out in the world you have to 'project you'.

Perhaps it matters how old your children are. Mine are late primary school. They get many different ideas of what women are and what mothers are from all their friends and teachers (and some of these ideas, frankly, are astounding). I need to fight my corner, IYSWIM. Of course it's not as arduous as "projecting" yourself in general, but nonetheless, I'm concious of the need to be that strong independent woman.

I agree with LordCopper.

My feminism is at my core; I think my children absorbed that at an early age.

Actually I think my family would agree that out in the world I have to tone down me.

Scones (off topic) do you have a good recipe for greens & grits?

Just a last comment about intersectionality. IT was the last night of my course last night. We all had to say what we're writing for our papers. One guy said that he struggles with feminist theory as so much of it seems to be about the theorist & where they sit as a person. He has serious MH issues, and has decided that he knows all he needs to know about himself, he wants theory to be more abstract & less personal.

I think that is the problem with some writers on intersectionality - they are saying 'look at me and my problems' but they are doing it to get a point across about groups of people. I'm not sure that the social sciences should be so objective, but I can see why people feel that way.