The Feminist Pub (continued).

[UptoapointLordCopper]

Been busy. Came back today to have a look but the Pub thread was full! Shall we continue here?

Third episode of Borgen on tonight.

Sorry to hear that Belle

I am not a fan of intersectionality. Yes racism has a massive impact on black women, class on poor women, etc.

But intersectionality is often used in such an individualistic way, that it becomes meaningless. To talk about feminism, you have to talk about generalisations. For example, women are paid less than men, and black women are paid less than white women.

If you don't do that, you can't devise political campaigns to fight these issues.

Thanks! sorry, just wading into a massive debate about important things like racism and intersectionality.

Never was good with pub banter

Wade away!

I just threw a Big Word around to impress people - all smoke and mirrors, here

Hope Mildred booked her flights. The relative proportions of men and women in business travel situations is always a stark reminder.

Post-DC I mainly do short haul now, previously I remember being told by the customers I was visiting that I would never find a husband with all the travelling I did.

Boys Clubs

Thought this was very powerful

Belle I do sympathize. I have been married nearly 30 years and have never used my husband's name. We recently received two different wedding invitations from his side of the family addressed to Mr. and Mrs. His Firstname HisSurname. The older (and grumpier) I get the less I am inclined to put up with it. So in the RSVPs, I made a big point of getting our names right.

I agree with Grennie that the intersectionality discussions can get so individual as to be meaningless, especially in a political context, but I still think that intersectionality in a broader sense can be very instructive in addressing how oppressive systems work together. I grew up as a white person in the segregated US South. I came to the Women's Movement from the Civil Rights Movement (as did many Second Wave feminists, black and white) and racism and sexism and how they work together is still an important focus of my feminism.

And lately I have been examining from a professional and personal standpoint of how ageism and sexism function together. Just at the point that some of us think we may have reached some measure of liberation, we run up against the very hard wall of ageism.

BelleCurve, sorry to hear about your cards.

As far as I get intersectionality - which is only at a very shallow level - the point is exactly not to rank people according to victimhood. It is precisely so as you don't get the apples / pears situation of everyone refusing to acknowledge each other's oppression.
I think it is based on an idea that you have to look at everything in context and that everything shifts.
as you can tell, I am no expert.

I think it is not so much about attempting to "trump" one another as about looking at how different currents of oppression can become perfect storm in some sections of society, and feed into each other; and also at how attempts to attack one kind of oppression can unwittingly bolster another. I read lots of examples but I am too sleepy to talk about it properly. just back from work.

What I don't think it is (and this may be my personal prejudice or what I need it not to be) is a rationale that can ever invalidate feminist defence of a particular woman's equality because her would-be oppressor is, for instance, black or poor or disabled. I know there are men who would like it to be that. But I don't recognise that, I see that as missing the point and more menz "me me me" ism. You can recognise various other forms of oppression without throwing your own liberation under the bus.

OK - I have been super busy and not managed to keep up with this, but in summary.

1. NAmes, it is rude and stupid not to use the name a person wants. Apart from the first couple of times, you really should have the basic respect for another person to use their name. Not to do so implies you either can't or won't listen to what that name is.

1. Intersectionality - think about it in mathematical/geometrical terms. It is where two aspects of your life meet/intersect. Think about two lines that cross or intersect. It is about that moment when you suddenly realize that you are dealing with an issue not just as a woman, but as a woman who also ... (fill in the aspects of life that affect you.) So it is less about who has the greatest disadvantage, and more to do with the complications that abound the moment you look at all aspects of a person, not just their sex/gender. (e.g. it is harder for women of color to get into a refuge for women at risk, although they are at greater risk than white women!)

First and second wave feminism were dominated by white middle class women who had the time, education and money to be activists and write papers. Therefore they tended very much to reflect that background. Since then other women have pointed out, quite rightly, that those women are among the most privileged of women, and that we need to hear the voices of women of color, women with infirmity, women in poverty etc. More modern feminist writing tends to be about those issues, but still white middle class women continue to hold the greatest power wealth etc.

I have just done an entire semester on this for my MA. I can recommend some reading if anyone wants it, but it can be fairly heavy going.

I'd like some recommended read Kickass. If I'd understand it without a mega academic background in the subject. I don't mind heavy going, but I struggle when every other word is terminology I don't know and have to go away and look up.

Chandra Mohanty is good for readability, and Shane Phelan. Kimberle Crenshaw writes about afro-american women & violence.
Judith Butler I found I had to unpick every word.

Just looking back through my work I realise it's all articles and book excerpts, not things I can do links to.

www.muhlenberg.edu/media/contentassets/pdf/campuslife/SDP%20Reading%20Lorde.pdf This one gives a good reason for why we shouldn't assume white, middle class when talking about feminism.

Gloria Anzaldua en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_E._Anzald%C3%BAa wrote about this a lot, particularly in her book Borderlands, which is part poetry, stream of consciousness type stuff.

Do you know about this event?

www.facebook.com/events/777567275592373/

'Tis London, it might as well be the moon...

:( Maybe they will do events in other parts of the country as well. Lets hope so.

There, there, it's safe here, LordCopper

I know, it's like time warp out there sometimes

It's OK - I've gone to the food section. Strangely enough nobody tells you that you have to cook because you are a woman there.

I've just been to a family event. My step mum talked a lot to me about her relationship with my dad. In her words, he treats women as second class citizens and she thinks he married her to be a kept man in retirement. He put on an "act" before marriage before revealing his true self. I could have told her that before - he does fuck all around the house. doesn't listen and always thinks he's right.

I think they're going to separate. He can not change his ways and I can see her point of view as I know exactly what he's like. Listening to her and knowing Dad like I do, I honestly don't understand why she stays.

I don't cook. That's dp's job, he's far better at it than me. I sometimes make dinner for the dcs but that's only on days dp is home late from work and the dcs can't wait that long.

In our house dp is pt while I am ft, so he does the majority of the household tasks that aren't covered by our cleaner (14yo dd1 who wanted a job about the same time as I decided we'd pay for a cleaner so we killed 2 birds with one stone). I get to do the fun bits of having kids while he gets the boring bits .

And I agree with Pacifist anything in London may as well be the moon for all the chance I have of going to it. If they came to the North West then I'd go, or the Scottish Borders.

Jeez LordCopper, that sent me straight to the thread and I got the rage!

I am actually a good cook and do cook a lot (DH works away from home quite a lot). But it would never occur to DH that a big 'event' was my responsibility and that he could swan off out.

Did you find it Penguin? Isn't it astounding?

I also love cooking. DP does cook as well but his main job is the washing up. And for bigger occasions we tend to cooperate. But people tend to thank me. Which also gives me the rage.

I must be all sweetness and light.

wow that thread is

Christmas is the hardest time of the year to go against tradition.

We run a pretty gender neutral ship most of the time but I know on Xmas Day it will be the women in the kitchen and the men assembling toys. In all honesty i'm not annoyed though I see why I should be, and indeed would be any other day of the year.

Christmas innit. The ritual and tradition is more important than the substance, now.

I think I'd shoot myself in the foot if I didn't do the stuff I enjoy because it's gender-typical, for instance 'proper' cooking: I like trying new recipes out when I have the time and often Christmas I do have the time and inclination. I'll be off work for 5 days and I am sooooo looking forward to doing stuff in the kitchen.
I hate, hate, hate cooking dinner every day of the week, what shall we have for dinner today, aaaargh! Thank goodness DH does about 80% or our grocery shopping so he thinks about what we are going to have and I or the nanny prepare it usually and that's fine.

I love not having to bother about looking after my car as I have No Interest whatsoever in it whereas DH actually likes it.

I know he can cook (and sometimes does, he does a mean chilli con carne and ham in cola) and I know I am perfectly capable of keeping my car on the road, but this way suits me better .

Now if I could find somebody to go through the mess that is my paperwork and find all the bits I need for my tax return?!