Why would you be proud to be married?

[Grennie]

I am just trying to understand this from a feminist perspective. Why would a woman under patriarchy be proud to be married?

It wasn't always, and in many cases may not be now. For me, it was and is every day. One of the best choices I have ever made x

Marriage was designed as a patriarchial institution, in which women were owned and controlled by men. It wasnt that long ago, that a married woman was legally owned in the UK, by her Husband. And many of the customs of a wedding reflect that status.

So it makes sense to critique marriage from a feminist perspective. I think marriage has changed, certainly legally. But it is still used as a cultural prop to control and subordinate women.

Look at the emphasis on the wedding day being the best day of your life. And the emphasis on making your marriage work, and the subsequent shame many women feel if they end up divorcing.

I think making your marriage work is BS. If you have chosen the right person, then yes there will be conflicts that you have to deal with as in any relationship. But the working at it trope, keeps a lot of women in bad marriages.

Also in society women who are married do have higher social status than women who are not. That is a reality, and that makes marriage very attractive for many women.

So given that context, being proud to be married, or being proud to have a long happy marriage, is open to feminist critique.

I've noticed in the past that the word 'proud' always seems to get a pasting on MN. It seems to be seen in a very 'Wow, look how great I am. Look what I've achieved' way, whereas in real life I am not sure that is such a common perception. I have a friend, for example, who is incredibly 'proud' to be Welsh (think Catatonia on repeat). It's not an achievement. She hasn't contributed anything to Welshnesss as such. She doesn't promote (or even speak the language), devote herself to preserving the culture. She's just Welsh because she happened to be born to Welsh parents and she's proud of it. And I think that most people just accept that as a characteristic of herself that she likes and values.

On the issue of marriage. I am married. I am proud of my marriage (not of 'being' married per se) and the work we have put into it over the years. I am proud to be in a relationship with my husband because I think he's a wonderful person. When I introduce him to people who haven't met him before, I feel good that he is the person I am introducing. Because I (at a personal level and without any judgement on those who have made different choices) value the promises and commitment I have made through marriage, I guess that means I am proud to be married to my husband.

Has marriage always been a choice?

No, it hasn't - but I think we're talking about now, in the UK, for women who have made their own decision to marry (or not).

Sir, it really depends which women you are talking about in the UK. There are still women coerced or forced into marriage in the UK. No it is not a choice for some women, in some communities.

You make some very valid historical points, but they do not wholly reflect marriage in our society today. I certainly do not view my marriage through this lens which appears to focus on a negative perspective.
Rest assured I would not feel 'proud' to remain in an unhappy or loveless marriage.

Marriage is used as a cultural prop- Yes. In certain communities; in certai relationships, in certain situations. Yes, totally agree.

It is also true that not marrying is used in the same way by certain abusive men. To ensure that the woman does not have the financial and legal security that marriage at least theoretically provides (though enforcement is obviously a troublesome issue).

I am not sure that, in many groups, being married does have higher social status. Certainly in older age groups. In certain communities. With younger people and urban areas, I'm not so sure. I can think of a lot of couples where I don't know if they are married or not. In fact, one couple posted wedding photos recently on Facebook and it was the first time I had given their marital status a thought either way.

Penguins...lovely!

I know Grennie - see the last part of my sentence 'for women who have made their own decision to marry (or not)' ie those not coerced/forced.

I'm proud that I stand on my own two feet. I'm proud that I question what I am told I should aspire to by the patriarchy. I think people are far too compliant and unquestioning. I really don't see how marriage can be something to be proud of. For lots of women around the world marriage is enforced slavery.

It is also true that not marrying is used in the same way by certain abusive men. To ensure that the woman does not have the financial and legal security that marriage at least theoretically provides

Good point Penguins.

I do think that the historical background to marriage is troublesome for many people. I would like to see those who wish to receive the benefits of the legal protections of marriage without that context have the option of heterosexual civil partnerships. A straightforward ceremony, not lots of legal time with a lawyer that still doesn't quite replicate a lot of the rights.

I also agree that many of the ceremonies of a wedding are troubling. I wish I had resisted my father 'giving me away' more than I did. I told him he wasn't. My husband certainly didn't ask his permission to marry me (I'd have known he wasn't the man for me if he had!!). But he would have been devastated not to walk me down the aisle and I gave in to keep the peace. I find that troubling as a feminist. But we all make sacrifices to avoid hurting people and that was one I made.

Grennie there is not more going on here . I am quietly proud of being married. I am not owned or controlled by my DH. We are very much equals in every way and respect and love each other.
I can't see any feminist issue with my marriage.

I don't agree that single women have a lower social status than married women. That certainly isn't the case with the people I know.

Is a registry office ceremony not a civil partnership type thing??

In most Continental European countries the legal side of marriage and then the churchy aspect are quite separate.

I suppose it's still a 'marriage'...

Not all of us define our marriage by past definitions Grennie. Calling a different view point to your own as BS isn't really very respectful.

Every day we get the opportunity to define ourselves and what we mean by x, whether that be marriage, relationships etc.

Marriage for the vast majority of women is a choice. Many people get married for the legal protection is brings for both men and women, as well as the religious, spiritual and other commitments it represents to them. Marriage does not have to be anti feminist, it does not have to be detrimental to either party, it does not have to define a persons' role in society, within their relationship or within their family.

I think we should be proud that men and women get to define their marriages how they see fit. Who are we to judge other people's happiness?With each day, month, years, generations the general consensus on marriage will change. We can see that with the potential introduction of gat marriage, the legal definition of marriage is change. So too with our ideas of what a marriage should be, roles etc.

But that change starts with people considering their own views. My grand parent's marriage spanned over 50 years, my aunty's too - they role in their relationship was based on their relative strengths and weaknesses, their personality traits.. not on 'traditional' gender roles. The older generations in my family did not define their marriages by cultural norms, they defined it themselves. And made their marriages work, and they were loved, content, happy and felt achievement in making their marriages work. They even were proud. Who are we to judge what people are proud about?

We got married in a registry office and it is very much legally a marriage.

It's not a civil partnership, it is still, in the eyes of the law a marriage. A non-religious marriage, but still a marriage.

There are differences, most of which are negative (fewer rights for civil partners in recognition abroad, pensions, etc). However, there are also differences like adultery not being a ground for dissolution (though you could use unreasonable behaviour or something along those lines, I forget the term). There are also no legally required vows.

For those who have an issue with the institution of marriage, it's also teh simple fact that a partnership doesn't come with the historical baggage.

In some places and / or cultures, of course marriage is used to subjugate and control women. But I chose to be married. I told DH if he asked my dad for permission to propose I would refuse. My dad didn't "give me away" at our wedding. We have a marriage of equal footing. I am proud that after nearly ten years we are in a stronger place together than we were when we got married, despite life's ups and downs. This isn't completely through luck, we have had to work at it. Same as I am proud of my career - I have had a healthy dose of luck, but I have also worked bloody hard to get where I am now.

I'm yet to see the OP articulate why I shouldn't be proud to be married, in the same way that I am proud of my career.

Grennie I completely agree that the notion of women being proud to be married is open to feminist critique. It's a shame this thread has gone down the choosey-choice / don't question other people's choices rabbit hole.

I agree with your last post - I think the issue of pride and shame over failing marriages still keeps women in bad relationships.

Whether or not any individual woman or man feels proud about their relationship or marriage isn't really the point. In our popular discourse, it is women who are said to be proud to be married, proud to be "Mrs", to have bagged a man. Society considers it an achievement for the women and not the men, whose ambitions and energies are expected to go into non-domestic achievements.

And everything that plinkyplonk said much more eloquently!

How was marriage my own idea? Did I really wake up one day and thought - what I really need is a sexist set-up where I can be part of an institution which used to be and is still used around the world to enslave women for the benefit of men?

As for coercion - mothers are discriminated against on the job market and having a child takes a toll on your earning potential. This economic burden is still shouldered mostly by women, and marriage aims to redress that to a small degree. How is it not socially coercive to say to women: this is what motherhood will do to you, marriage legally offers limited protection. How is that a free choice?

Don't even get me started on the pathetically infantilising ritual itself, where even in a fairly progressive country such as Britain, traditionally only men speak at weddings, leaving the bride mute but pretty in white. I do not mean to offend fans of traditional weddings, but obediently performing my role within a rampant commercialised patriarchal show is not how I envisage the best day of my life.

I would say that I'm proud to be married to a wonderful man, not of the marriage itself.

Single women are sometimes left out of married people's plans though. I am single (proud to be divorced from a nightmare husband years ago) and I have lots of married friends and friendly acquaintances who do tend to miss me off the list if they are having a dinner party or something. I think sometimes married women can be a bit wary of single women, or (worse) pity us. And no, it's not because they don't' like me-married women want to hang out with me one to one, just not as part of their married people gang.
I have no data here, it's just something I get a sense of, day to day.

It's a shame this thread has gone down the choosey-choice / don't question other people's choices rabbit hole

Patronising much.

Flora, I agree with most of your 21:00 post, except I would say that most of the married men I know would absolutely say that they were proud to be married. I genuinely don't think it is something limited to women, even if popular culture and the bloody wedding industry would have us believe different.