Why would you be proud to be married?

[Grennie]

I am just trying to understand this from a feminist perspective. Why would a woman under patriarchy be proud to be married?

Surely when people say I'm proud to be married: I've been married for 20 years, I'm proud of my husband, I'm proud of.... etc etc, they mean I'm proud of MY marriage, I'm proud of MY personal situation. This is different to saying I'm proud to have achieved the act of marriage in itself. Surely one can be proud to have created something (a loving relationship, perhaps with some effort), but to be proud of simply jumping a legal hurdle/bagging a man, would be misplaced.

Not sure if I've explained that very clearly

But what does it mean exactly? That you think you've done well. I can understand when there is some sort of qualification ie you've weathered storms and are good to each other. But marriage in itself. Even bad ones? Nobody would be proud of being in a bad marriage.

So, I can understand feeling proud of having a good strong relationship with a significant other. But not just marriage as an inherently good state.

"Single women are sometimes left out of married people's plans though"

I find the opposite. Although I'm not married, DP has lots of couple friends but it's those with young DC that are often left out since one partner often has to "babysit". Since I've had DC I'm usually at home with them whilst he goes out socialising with them or attends weddings.

I don't mind as I'm not particularly sociable and it gives me a good excuse to say home but if you were and couldn't get a babysitter easily I could imagine you could feel very left out.

'Marriage was designed as a patriarchial institution, in which women were owned and controlled by men.'

It's not now though.

'But the working at it trope, keeps a lot of women in bad marriages.'

And men.

youngblowfish I am also proud to be a mother, even though being one is probably the worst thing I could have done for my career, sense of self, financial stability etc etc.

And please don't assume that everyone had a traditional wedding where only men speak and the bride is given away as a chattel from one man to another. In any case, a wedding is not the same as a marriage.

Well, a quick google of the phrase 'feminist analysis of marriage' throws up just over 16 million hits, so clearly a few people thought it worthy of exploration beyond their own experiences of their wedding.

I agree with youngblowfish in principle. Still got married in white, waling down aisle etc. Tried to speak at my own wedding but got overcome with emotion yadda yadda. Was a good day, and not one I've since regretted, but NOT the best frigging day of my life.

You choose your own wedding and you can have what you like!
It has nothing to do with the marriage, you can pop down to the registry office in your lunch break and find a couple of witnesses if you want.

It's the same whenever the whole Mrs/Miss/Ms topic comes up - lots of people saying they use Mrs because they're proud of being married.

I don't understand it myself. I'm married, but for legal/practical reasons. I'm not proud of being married at all. And I use Ms as a title. Some relationships are good, some are bad, IME whether the couple are married or not is irrelevant. Preening that you're married is pointless - you could be married and in a totally shit relationship.

I do think it really lies with the whole "you're not a real woman until married and therefore validated by a man" tradition. Particularly since women only get to have an adult title, ie Mrs, when married, and before that have the title of a child, ie, Miss.

So while I recognise that the institution of marriage has moved on from it's patriarchal roots of ownership of women, and I don't have any issue with marriage as a legal contract, I don't see it as any reason to be proud.

Weddings and marriages are different though. And traditional weddings are very weird affairs. The number of novelties introduced as traditions seem to grow every year.

My wedding day WAS the best day of my life.

I didn't expect it to be, but it was just totally brilliant.

A beautiful sunny day with all my friends having a big party and drinking champagne. What was not to like about that?

The second best day was at Glastonbury.

People often say the days of their children's birth were the best. But having my belly sliced open with a knife and having a catheter are just not as much fun as dancing for hours or wandering around a field on mushrooms.

I was careful not to conflate the ritual and the institution in my post, I have different issues with both.

Like I said, I do not have a personal issue with people who are fans of traditional marriage and I understand that all of us will try to find an answer to those dilemmas through making choices based on our own subjective views of what they find valuable.

However, at risk of stating the obvious, I think the larger frameworks within we all have to function to form a part of society are worth exploring, since they are still broadly patriarchal even if you personally do not see them as such. You may disagree with me, but there is a reason why women only own 1% of the world's wealth and, as such, are still in this day and age more likely to be a property than own one. Marriage is certainly part of that.

I use Mrs because I am married so it is the correct term.

Hopefully I will be able to use a different title in the future though,

FamiliesShareGerms I agree that there are probably loads of men who would say they are proud of their wives or marriages but it's not something men generally do say to the same extent that women do. I'm struggling to think of an example where a man said such a thing IRL. Just as boys are not told their wedding day is the best day of their lives nor that marriage is an achievement for them. In fact the whole stag BS is about last day of freedom, ball and chains etc. I think I'm uncomfortable with the notion of women being proud of marriage as it seems to accept all these socially-imposed notions of marriage and women's place in society. Obviously lots of people (including me) are happily married but I don't see that as being the same thing as being proud to be married.

I agree Blowfish.

The problem is that, in our patriarchal society, the alternative to marriage is to choose not marry: to have fewer legal protections on separation; to have basically no protection on pensions, etc; to have very curtailed rights to make medical decisions for your partner; to have to take extra steps as a father to ensure you are recognised as such, etc.

So whilst the issue of the institution of marriage is definitely worthy of feminist analysis, it also makes sense at a personal level for women operating within that patriarchal society to marry.

"I use Mrs because I am married so it is the correct term. "

I'm married and I don't use it.

In what sense is that not "correct"?

I am married and use Mrs. Because, er, I didn't give it enough thought when I married. Changing it now would be a 'big deal' though. I sometimes put it on forms for new things though.

I am confused by your post. I assume you use Ms, that fine. I am married, I dont have an issue showing that with my title so I do so

I dont think hat other things are wrong, that is just my chose. As was changing my name.

I think the issue was that you said that the reason you used Mrs was because it was correct. If correctness is the reason for doing something, it implies other choices are incorrect IYSWIM. Rather than saying "Mrs is one of the options as a married woman and I just choose to use it"

Indeed, penguins.

Which is why I am married. I may be a feminist, but I am not delusional and understand that the strength of my convictions won't be much good when I need legal protection inside a patriarchal set up. I don't feel great about it and I certainly don't see it as a free choice - it was the best option available to me at the time, across a set of options which were all circumscribed by the social implications of my having a womb.

What I would like instead of a traditionally demeaning ritual and the promised land of domestic servitude is proper equal pay, proper legal protection and for motherhood to stop being such an obstacle on the job market. The patriarchy can keep the ring.

I've just never heard anyone say that Mrs was the "correct" term to use if you were married.

Loads of women who are married don't use it and loads of women who aren't married do use it.

FloraFox I don't agree at all - I've heard 2 men in the past few days say that they are proud of their wives, why wouldn't they be credited with feeling the same as women? As for the stag do ball & chain stuff, hen dos are exactly the same - it's all a bit of fun, surely no-one really feels like that?!

My husband says that our wedding was the best day of his life, and I feel the same. I'm a feminist and proud of it, and our day was about both of us; we both spoke and we both had a ball. I haven't taken his name because neither of us feel it to be right or necessary. We are equals and that why I'm proud of him.

Penguins - I just stopped using Mrs one day and started using Ms. I didn't officially change anything, but over the years, whenever I signed up for anything new I used Ms, until now I think it's only the NHS that still has be down as Mrs. Similarly, I have also gone double-barrelled with my maiden name (another awful term!) and am just gradually easing it into everything with a minimum of fuss.

So changing title or name is not really a big deal at all. Particularly title, since it's not a legal thing; you can use whatever you like.

I'm not saying you should change, just that you shouldn't feel it's difficult.

Being proud of your wife is not the same as being proud to be married.

Flora, I agree completely that the whole wedding industry is geared towards women being told that it's the best day of their lives blah blah blah. I still think if you did a random street poll of married men, the vast majority would be happy to describe themselves as "proud to be married".

I also suspect that everyone gets married for different reasons, whether it was the "done thing", parental pressure, following the crowd when all your mates are getting married, desire to have a big wedding, celebrate your relationship, enjoy the legal privileges....... Some of those reasons are problematic from a feminist analysis, and the historical concept of marriage likewise, but I don't believe that getting married is always an anti-feminist act nor one that is not worthy of pride.