The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

(sorry just quoting the odd thing I have read online and don't agree obviously, as happily married to the penis carrying sort)

Yy for young children I focus on how thinks were and compare to how they are now. Children are not blind to the world they live in and my older boys have pointed some inequalities they've noticed out to me.

There are unreasonable and easily-galled people in in subgroup of the human species. IMVHO all extremes of opinion are in danger of looking... well, extreme and a bit ridiculous. But I'd say the same about many other 'radicalisms'.

If everybody could be more considerate and empathic of their neighbour's needs, we'd all get on better .
MN as a microcosmos of life is a nice example: lots of good info, lots of v genuine support, often well beyond the virtual world, but some snipers and frankly, rather unpleasant, posters.

"A" penis carrying sort... not the penis carrying sort

though I am sure he like to think of himself as the

From the Big Issue: 1944 they overturned the ban of married women being teachers.

LordCopper I agree there should be more men working in childcare. One of my first jobs was in a nursery. At first the parents were a bit that I worked there, but got over it after a couple of days.

Attitude to men working with children shows how confused people are. In fact attitude to women working with children also shows how confused people are. In fact it is just confusion all round ... There were always and still are male practitioners when my kids were in nursery and now in school. But a minority.

Sorry, not on topic for men in childcare, dotting back to "men over-represented on TV" - but... I remember a friend of mine, when we were about 20: we were sitting in front of the TV one evening and she was generally tired and pissed off and we were having a good old moan. She flicked about with the remote control saying "Boring - boring - boring - crap" and then she said, "Right I am giving this TV one more chance and if the next channel I go to has a man instead of a woman I am turning the fucker off". She flicked, it was a man, the TV went off, we put some music on instead. Somehow that stayed with me. I was always a more analytic serious person, she was always more fun-loving and pragmatic with better emotional intelligence, and I learnt a lot from that: without "over thinking it" (not that I really agree that there is such a thing!) she just awarded herself permission not to be bored by boring men all the time. Love her

The first time I noticed it properly was during the 2010 elections. Men everywhere offering their boring opinion. Made me realise I wanted to listen to women's opinions (yes even Louise Mensch).

Your friend sounds great Mildred. I wish I had more friends who see the sexism I see, but if I mentioned at work how many more men there were on tv or films there is only 1 woman I work with who would get it. The others really wouldn't see it as a problem and tell me I should find more important things to worry about

Men in childcare and primary education is quite a difficult one isn't it? A lot of people seem to distrust men working with small children, yet they are over represented in management positions. I can't remember the stats but there is a far higher percentage of male primary heads than there should be based on the percentage of male primary teachers. It would be good for children to see more men in caring roles so they don't automatically assume that women always do all the caring. My dad was a teacher and really wanted to teach primary but he was talked out of it because so many people thought it was odd that a man would want to teach young children. In the end he compromised by teaching middle school which is years 5 - 8. He loved the younger ones the best. My mum didn't have anybody trying to persuade her out of being a reception teacher.

My mum did tell stories of men applying to be nursery nurses or tas and the head used to bin them immediately (which is illegal if we could have proved it) because she was convinced that any man who wanted to work with nursery or reception children must be creepy

I never picked up on the "men are visual" = "men objectify" thing before. That's so true.

I used to work in a DVD shop - second hand DVDs too, not just chart stuff, so a huge selection - and it's seriously depressing to go around the shelves and see how many films centre around male characters - about 90%. And 90% of the films which do centre around female characters are either about women obsessing over men, or women being mothers. Films actually about women are a tiny tiny minority.

If anyone wants a good series which has a female lead without it ever being made an issue of or her being sidelined, try Fringe.

There is a bloody brilliant Tina Fey article in which she talks about how the male management in the film industry systematically reduces film scripts to pieces that must utterly fail the Bechdel test, even when the drafts written by women pass them with flying colours. She writes from the inside about how the pencil will inevitably slash through this or that because "nobody cares" or "it slows the story down" or something.

I think it was in the New Yorker in 2011 sometime but you can't get it online unless you are a subscriber.

She also said that women over 40 don't get acting parts because they are described as "crazy" which means "a woman who keeps talking after no one wants to fuck her any more".

That sounds a really interesting article Mildred

BraveMerida - Girls are Best by Sandi Toksvig is great.

Thanks for the responses - I want to be clear in my mind before I attempt to explain to my daughters. We are currently starting to explore equality in the home - that may be all about getting them to stop asking me for things, especially when they have just walked past their dad to do so ;)

But I love the "men are more visual, so why can't they see the dust?" phrase though

(disclaimer: I believe men and women are both capable of seeing dust, given the eye is not a sexed organ...)

On boring opinions: A man's boring opinion - "oh isn't he boring". A woman's boring opinion - "oh aren't women boring". HTH.

(Only half joking.)

Yy LordCopper.

So remember: every time you do something not so successfully you bring disgrace to all women. Every time you do something successfully it's because you are rich/middle-class/educated/privileged/have a rich husband/ etc and had advantages that other women didn't have so don't think you can take credit.

No pressure. Go forth and be fruitful.

Sorry. Shall stop being bitter now.

Can I just have a rant about fancy dress costumes? We've got loads of kids coming round trick and treating, I don't mind giving out sweets. I do have a bit of a problem with the costumes. Most of the boys costumes seem weather appropriate but the girls seem to be flimsy little dresses So the girls end up either freezing cold or covering up with a coat so it seems a bit pointless to have a costume in the first place.

And don't even get me started on what the teenagers are wearing, skin tight "sexy" costumes that I really don't think are appropriate for teens young enough to still want to trick and treat.

Have you had any 'Sexy Schoolgirls' at the door yet, Didi?
By choice I'd have nothing to do with Halloween, but DCs have different ideas... Bah humbug

DH took DC trick-or-treating. I stayed home and put headphones on.

We didn't have any 'Sexy schoolgirls' but dd1 and her friends told me they were going to be zombies. I thought that was fairly safe costume wise. How little did I know. Zombies now wear skintight dresses and fishnet stockings but have fake blood round their mouths and splashed all over them . I should have known better than to agree to her getting ready at a friends house to go t & t. Lesson learnt, She won't be going next year, not least because at 15 she will be too old for it (I really think she's already too old for it at 14, but I didn't want to be the only mum to not let her go)

Is nobody in the pub today? You were all so talkative yesterday.

If I'm drinking on my own then I'll have a nice hot chocolate with cream and marshmallows please.

I'm here for a few minutes. I'm going to do something else in a minute. Not sure what yet though ...