The Feminist Pub - come on in, chat, ask a quick question, ramble ... whatever you like!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair!

This thread started when we all decided to imagine what the perfect local for feminists would be like. So far, it has taps with plenty of good real ale, and some decent non-alcoholic alternatives too. There are comfy chairs and there's a feminist film night, as well as lots of nice feminist-friendly books on the shelves and space to curl up and read. The open-mic nights are attracting feminist singers and comedians, and we're just sorting out the feminist creche.

Old thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1875250-The-Feminist-Pub-is-Open-Chat-Rant-or-pull-up-a-chair-here. But don't feel you need to read or catch up - just jump in.

I'm having a nice cup of earl grey but there is wine mulling as requested.

What can I get anyone?

I hate how books and TV often have a main male character that women are expected to identify with, but with main female characters producers apparently always discuss whether men would identify with her.

Travelling on a long haul flight and flicking through the films on the entertainment system, really emphasised how virtually all films had a man in the lead, and if a woman was a lead character, it was a romantic film or she was there as the "love interest". I know there are exceptions, but it annoyed me.

Definitely scallops
The character (clever, thoughtful etc) is a large part of the attraction.
Is's such a shame that we don't have that open to us in the same way.

Yes lots of lesbians like Heather Peace for example. But she either appears as a serious actress, or she is a singer songwriter. She doesn't appear on TV or stage because of her looks, and she isn't presented as being there because she is "sexy" or sexually performing.

For me, Bond films are among the worst.
Dh considers me most dull and disloyal for not watching them with him. I simply can't bear them.
Although there was a slight upturn for me when Judy Dench played M.

Isn't saying 'Oh Men are so visual, looks are important to them' just another way of saying Men Objectify Women? (But it's feminists fault for pointing it out without the euphemisms)
Just struck me there when you were talking about that actor, good looking AND with personal qualities that make him attractive. Different dynamic.

I do go a bit slack jawed when I look at him though

But yes sinister. I don't believe there is any clinical evidence supporting th idea that men re more "visual" than women. They have just been given more to look at .
It has been demonstrated though, that women on the whole demonstrate greater degrees of empathy than men. But this is likely to be conditioning. It's one of the traits that is beneficial for nurturing of course.

Oh, so a greater degree of empathy results in (among other things) a lesser propensity to objectification IYSWIM.

If men are more visual than women, why aren't they as interested in fashion or interior design or why don't the "see the dirt" (I know they do btw!).

Men are visual when it suits them to be visual i.e. at the expense of women.

Sorry for the rant that whole argument really fucking annoys me. It is just a blatant lie.

Absolutely scallops
But women are more "visual" whe it comes to liking babies. And flowers

Yes it is a lie. And blatantly so. I made the mistake of rising to the bait and posting on the MRA thread.

An active thread Grennie ?

In chat. I might just have killed it. I am grumpy today - which really means I have no patience for lies and twistings of the truth.

Can I ask what everyone thinks of the men in childcare campaign? Apologies if this has been done to death... I haven't thought it all through yet, but:

On the one hand I am all for getting rid of gender stereotyping - men and women in chlidcare, please. Let's work at removing barriers for anybody wanting to work in chlidcare.

On the other hand I am worried about some "sayings" that I've seen and heard: "Men bring such advantage to children - they are stronger and less fussy! The children would benefit so much!" (Seriously. Men are strong enough to play football with the children!) How is it a good thing to say we need men in childcare because women are rubbish? And there is also the thing about the "glass escalator", where men in women-dominated careers tend to get accelerate to management positions (says Delusions of Gender).

On the third hand I say "Welcome to our world."

Am I overthinking?

No you are not copper. There are issues there.

Totoro is awesome. I still can't get over how brilliant it is.

Meh, flowers. i can take them or leave them tbh

I think there are more 'visual' people, it's not devided by gender. Just like being musical or righthanded is not a gendered thing.

Of course we are ALL sexual beings, so, yes, certain actors/actresses may 'do' more for one than others Bond being one of my guilty pleasures. I watch some TV/films as I would a fairy tale (and how sexist are they?? ): suspend all disbelief/ability for critical thinking and go with the premise.
That does not make the shere unavailability of female heroines that don't look like Lara Croft less annoying. It is rather telling that Lara Croft was a game character/cartoon first...

Apparently DH is so 'visual' that he need HD TV at all times because his visual cortex is positively offended by poor quality pictures, however smelly pants are invisible

needs, doh

I do know English grammar, just cannot type acurately enough to get away with not proofreading. For which I am too impatient...

Oh massive x-post:

I think currently men in childcare are more valuable because they are rare and because it is important for all children (girls and boys) to see men in caring roles. IMO.

Hopefully this might change in the long run. DS4's nursery has 1 male student at the mo'.

I have seen the occasional lesbian feminist say you can't be a real feminist because you are "sleeping with them enemy" if you are straight and also seen the point that if you are a lesbian you could be seen to be objectifying women..

Maybe only political lesbians are the real feminist!

Hi, a baileys on ice please....sorry to interrupt with some random thoughts but....

Where or how do I start with getting dd (8) into feminism, but not overtly label it as feminism if you see what I mean, just an awareness of the unfairness and a critical way of looking at things...maybe some age appropriate books might be out there....

Secondly, I've noticed that while men tend tonetwork and form alliances in the wrk place or business, in my experience female work colleagues don't help each other, in fact quite the opposite.....I know this is a generalisation somewhat, but it's my experience....was wonder what others thought...

Some lesbians do objectify women. But many don't. If you are a feminist, you should not be objectifying women or men.

The idea that you can't be a feminist if you have a male partner makes no sense. So Catherine MacKinnon isn't a feminist??

I'd start with the history of feminism. The stuff that will explain why we have it and as she gets older age appropriately explain why we still need it.

She'll probably be shocked to know that women couldn't go to university or have certain jobs or even vote.