Am I wrong to feel shouted down by this?

[Puddingpop]

This is the first time I've ever ventured onto here,and I may regret doing so,but this is really annoying me and I'm curious to know the opinions of other women on the subject.

I use Tumblr,and I keep seeing messages like this on my dash,which have been reblog fed by friends,Cis women can have abortions. Men can have abortions. People who identify as both male and female can have abortions. People who don't identify as male or female can have abortions. Don't erase people.

Now I don't consider myself to be transphobic,but messages like that,and others referring to the 'privilege' of 'cis' women,are really starting to make me angry,perhaps unreasonably so. But I can't help feeling shouted down as a woman,when I see posts like that.Also being called a 'cis' woman really rankles,for some reason.

I don't deny that trans hatred exists,but when countless women are unable to get access to safe and accessible terminations when needed,and when so called developed nations are removing that right from women,doing all they can to make it harder for women to get a termination,is that really what we should be focusing on?

Spork, I have just looked at your link and it clearly shows that three of the six minority ethnic groups for men and for women, including both Black Caribbean men and women earn more than white women.

Spork, this isn't an intellectual discussion for most people. It is about all our real lives. I do not want other people to identify me based on a gender identity I have never experienced. There is no research demonstrating that all people or even a majority of people have an internal gender identity. If other people want to be identified by their gender, they should be allowed to do so and not face discrimination.

I should not have to make a statement about my gender or the lack of it when it is nobody else's business and I still face discrimination on the basis of my biological sex which almost everyone who knows me already knows.

Who the fuck says that to trans people what's your real name! I hope you are not implying that radfems are routinely going around saying that to people, GoshAnne*

You are the one who is not getting it. There are idealogical differences in theories of sex and gender but radfems DO NOT wish any trans person any harm or bother. Nor do we wish it for anyone else. It's not about condemning anyone to a life time of harm. Do you really think that? But NOTHING gets solved or understood without discussion and exploration.

I said ages back on this thread there is no consensus on whether gender is innate or not. There is only subjective experience. So why should one group get their subjective experience 'privileged' (for want of a less loaded term) over another group whose subjective experience says the opposite? that's the nub afaics

I don't know about that particular person. Looks like shit (meant seriously not flippantly)
But the radfem side could counter with that DIAF nonsense, or Cotton Ceiling Stuff. Is either of that representative?

I think there are people of all groups who wish to bother other people, particularly through Internet harassment. I'm not going to read further into your link Kim because as soon as I clicked on it I can see two groups of people being rude and nasty to each other, and I've seen enough of that to last a lifetime.

Not aimed at you, but what I find depressing about these threads is the constant need to trivialise or deny the existence of the discrimination other people face. Women who are not trans and women who are face different kinds of discrimination and some discrimination that is the same. Things like the cis privilege list are a classic example of that (again, covered many times before), because many of the items on it apply to all women.

What is the point to this theorising if you don't have any idea what it is you want to achieve?

Saying that some trans activists are meanies is not the same as stating what the aims of your discourse are.

So, I'm still waiting.

Freya - I am stunned at your response to LittleSpork's post.

Why? I cannot address every point. I have gone to look at the link she provided to see the figures showing that white women get paid more than every other group apart from white men, only to find it is completely untrue. That's pretty shocking.

spork I'm not going to answer each of your accusations individually because they all boil down to "women have it worse than you in other countries" which I hear all the time from men. I've repeatedly said I respect your right to organise to fight your oppression however you see fit and not necessarily to do so under a feminist banner. You are ratcheting up the insults and it is clear that you don't respect the rights of white women to fight their oppression. Given that most of the posters on this website live in the UK and know fuck all about Metis or US/Canada race issues, what are we supposed to do about the points you raise? How do you think I should make it my fight? Or is it just a case of STFU about your problems?

Gosh you ask about what would I like to do about the Gender Recognition Act. We rarely discuss the details of this therefore I would be open to considering other views but I think the general concept should be framed around persons of one sex who wish to live as persons of the other sex and not around gender identity. If someone demonstrates sufficient commitment to living as a member of the other sex full time (I think the current two years seems reasonable), I would like there to be a two tier process whereby they would be recognised as a member of the chosen sex. Post-op, the current provisions on sports teams should stay but there should also be limits on taking women's scholarships, quota positions (hah) or being counted in diversity statistics - the kind of things that reflect the advantage that would be obtained in achieving things with the benefit of boyhood / male privilege rather than girlhood. Pre-op, those things plus restrictions on accessing women's spaces - bathrooms, changing rooms etc. and rules on criminal cases (rape) to remain.

I would like all voluntary and political women's groups and shelters to be free to define their membership.

Would I make it illegal to be a rude asshole? No.

I do know what I want achieve. I want to protect the currently used meaning of sex and gender used by the UN, UNICEF, FAO etc where sex refers to biology and gender to social role. That allows the world to tackle both discrimation based on biological sex and that based on gender, protecting both all women and people on the masculine trans spectrum. I do not wish for society to adopt queer theory of trans activists because it removes any understanding of oppression based on sex and makes it harder to reduce suffering and discrimination. I have no issue with current gender recognition law in the UK.

Right. So bearing in mind that living as a woman for two years, means going around dressed as a woman, you want to make pre-op trans women use male facilities.

Can you not see the problems and huge, huge dangers you would making trans women face?

Verbally abusing someone for being trans is currently treated as hate speech. Does your "not making it illegal to be a rude asshole" mean this would no longer be the case?

You have also completely missed the point of LittleSpork's post, but that is the norm round here when anyone tries to mention colonial feminism.

Kim - I don't think much thinking of trans people as actual living, breathing human beings is going on here. Theories don't have to go to the toilet and all that.

If spork wants to start a thread on colonial feminism and what white feminists should do about it, I will read with interest. This is not that thread.

Men as a class are dangerous to women as a class. Actually, they are also dangerous to other men as a class. When my DS goes into a men's toilet, I stand outside and call out "are you okay?" every five minutes or so until he comes out. It is not possible to know who is a genuine transwoman and who is a pervert/rapist so no, I do not think pre-op transwomen should use women's toilets or changing facilities.

We should have more individual / unisex toilets with no communal sink area.

Misgendering someone and asking their real name is hate speech? If it is illegal, it shouldn't be. I don't agree with hate speech laws in general, but particularly since they don't apply to hate speech against women which is routinely vile and disgusting.

I haven't missed the point of Spork's post. It is simply that I don't have adequate knowledge of Canada to comment. If I wanted to find out more about feminism and colonialism in Canada I would want to learn about it by reading statements made by a. a woman and b. somebody who I could be confident was making factually correct statements.

GAG, and theories don't give birth either, which is why I'm opposed to your support of queer theory as if implemented it would remove human rights from those who do.

Theories are not raped.

How is accepting that trans women are women taking rights away from anyone? Examples please.

P.S we are all just people on the internet, but 2 minutes of Google would tell you that everything LittleSpork has said about indigenous people in Canada is accurate.

Are you listening to yourselves? Can you imagine if a man came on here and said he didn't believe us about sexism, would you really just meekly go "oh, OK then"

GAG, Spork has said they are not a woman; I would rather hear about the situation from a woman. It is impossible to know in 2 mins the situation discussed because it takes longer than that to read the post, much less give the topic the attention it deserves by reading up on it.

There is much in there that sounds very similar to the situation in the US that I am familiar with from talking to US women of color, but I would not know enough to comment myself or think it right to transfer that to talk about Canada.

While a man isn't on here, somebody who is gender queer (who therefore, according to the theory you support, has masculine privilege over us) is telling us about sexism and you are pretty much going oh, okay then, you tell women what their own oppression is and is not, and they should listen to you.

I don't know who is saying that trans women are taking rights away from women, so I can't comment on that either.

Gosh are you listening to yourself? Two minutes on google to cover the whole of the intersection of feminism and colonialism in Canada? No wonder you feel so confident in spouting your nonsense.

Crikey, if I didn't know better, I would think the discussion that's followed Spork's amazing post was "set up" to illustrate exactly the points in that post. But no, even more sadly, I think it's genuine not-getting-it-and-not-caring-because-it-doesn't-effect-me-so-I-can-ignore-it-I'm-alright-Jacqueline.

But then jaw goes clunk on the desk at these missives:

"organise to fight your oppression . . . not necessarily to do so under a feminist banner," (meaning - white feminism is THE only genuine feminism and WE say you can't be in the feminism club.)

"you don't respect the rights of white women to fight their oppression," (and we don't care if we perpetuate YOUR oppression in doing so.)

"most of the posters on this website live in the UK," (so not only do we not know or care much about those who don't, we refuse to consider that there could be parallels with the intersectional oppression faced by women of colour right here in the UK.)

"start a thread on colonial feminism and what white feminists should do about it . . . This is not that thread. (Go talk about your ishoos somewhere else. We're in charge here.)

And, I have no words for the statements about trans* people, just no words.

Why in the name of Audre Lorde to I even look at this board? Gah!

(Okay, it's because just sometimes, you see an insightful, thought-provoking, lucid and generally amazing post like Spork's, that must be why.)

Since when does anyone who is non-gender conforming have privilege over those who do.

I think it is extremely telling that you are doing everything possible to discount what Littlespork has said.

We've had:

This isn't the place to talk about that
I don't trust you
You are a man
You have masculine privilege
You are just saying that women in other countries have it worse.

All this because she dared to question someone's dismissal of third gender people in other cultures and talked about her personal experiences of how race and gender oppression intersect.