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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I wrong to feel shouted down by this?

150 replies

Puddingpop · 18/07/2013 11:48

This is the first time I've ever ventured onto here,and I may regret doing so,but this is really annoying me and I'm curious to know the opinions of other women on the subject.

I use Tumblr,and I keep seeing messages like this on my dash,which have been reblog fed by friends,Cis women can have abortions. Men can have abortions. People who identify as both male and female can have abortions. People who don't identify as male or female can have abortions. Don't erase people.

Now I don't consider myself to be transphobic,but messages like that,and others referring to the 'privilege' of 'cis' women,are really starting to make me angry,perhaps unreasonably so. But I can't help feeling shouted down as a woman,when I see posts like that.Also being called a 'cis' woman really rankles,for some reason.

I don't deny that trans hatred exists,but when countless women are unable to get access to safe and accessible terminations when needed,and when so called developed nations are removing that right from women,doing all they can to make it harder for women to get a termination,is that really what we should be focusing on?

OP posts:
LittleSporksBigSpork · 19/07/2013 13:20

Thank you Trills, you've explained it far better than my insomnia/having a shite brain week could. And GoshAnne, those a very good, often over looked points.

WhenTheRed - it is meant to be a vast oversimplification. The target audience for that is end of high school/beginning of college/have no clue whatsoever about any sex/gender issues. And those objects are associated in mass media as being attributed to those genders, that will be the target audience's main reference points.

Florafox - No one is trying to take away your struggle. The trans struggle is a separate issue that intersects with yours - transwomen (with or without penises) face more violence about their gender than transmen (With or without vaginas) - this is part of the patriarchy. And not everyone who is trans is a stereotype of an another gender, really need to get that through to people, it isn't just the activities, it's a person's identity. Trans*women are killed and have one of the highest suicide rates and it's no wonder if the mainstream would rather stomp experience into oblivion than offer support.

And many many cultures around the world have the concept of third gender/neutral gender/genderqueer (even Judaism has it). Most of them were destroyed through European colonization because everything needed to fit in the White religion White science idea of the binary. People who were outside of the gender binary in many cultures were murdered by White colonizers because it was against their binary, it terrified people so that now the concept is something whispered around in backrooms in concern as something dangerous. And feminists wonder why so many people and groups don't want to be feminists or trust you guys. You are fighting on the side of imperialists who kill us!

I am Metis, we have the concept of two spirit, it has nothing to do with women being seen as less than (early White feminist writings comes from observation of our cultures, during the wars between Europeans and Native nations, the majority of single White women stayed with ours because they were treated fairer). Not everything that is different from yours is less than, you might even learn something if you opened yourself a bit beyond what the systems have taught you. But we can't have people fighting the imperialism. Might actual treat all people as people and call them as they wish to be called because that's just the decent thing to do rather than having to dissect them for their proper classification. Don't need to be perfect, just need to see, try to understand by listening, and celebrating the whole person, treat them as a person with a humanity that should be respected, and work to ensure that regardless of what makes up that person that it doesn't effect their life chances.

I really should learn not to write about this stuff here, talk about bring shouted over and dismissed, this place does nothing but shout down when trans* issues come up, or even worse trying to discuss that some women actively oppress others and that it may need to be addressed to actually get equality for women. It wasn't just their abhorent views, it was that that they actively oppressed other women. Many White feminists stood on the necks of other women, even in the UK, actively sought to degrade and kill to boost their own standing, and still do so today without remorse, they try to boost themselves and only their way of thinking higher by tearing other women down. Your fight against gender ignores that it was White feminists who forced the gender roles in most other communities to suit their desires and oppress others (because our women were mostly working out of the home to care for White women's domestics, this still happens today). It's quite depressing that that is still the mainstay of feminism.

GoshAnneGorilla · 19/07/2013 14:02

BigSpork- I really, really appreciate your posts though and am very glad you take the time to write them. The same for you KRITIQ.

Also, thanks for mentioning Reproductive justice upthread, people might think that reproductive rights = abortion rights, but there is a far bigger struggle to be had.

It is not about only accepting perfection, so as someone said upthread that perfect is the enemy of good, but accepting that we may 1)have different struggles and we need to have genuine solidarity with each other.

2)There is a reason why you hear about certain women's issues more than others. Feminism does not exist in an inequality free vacuum. The way to overcome this is to acknowledge it, not pretend it doesn't exist.

kim147 · 19/07/2013 14:42

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StealthPolarBear · 19/07/2013 14:49

kim I hope I didn't offend you with my comments about breast cancer. TBH I don't really understand these issues.

kim147 · 19/07/2013 15:05

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FreyaSnow · 19/07/2013 16:12

These threads do cover the same ground over and over again, and often repeat they don't 'get' why people feel a certain way or believe a certain thing, despite being on multiple previous threads where it was explained. That suggests people aren't listening to each other.

Most if the stuff on tumblr about gender and cis-sexism is ridiculous and is at odds with how international organisations and governments understand and refer to sex and gender, much as the discussion of race on tumblr uses racism to mean something different than its international legal definition. I doubt most of it has much use to anybody from any disadvantaged group.

WhentheRed · 19/07/2013 17:20

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TunipTheVegedude · 19/07/2013 17:25

I agree Whenthered - I'd rather be called non-trans than cis.
It's not about the privilege issue, it's that cis implies belief in an innate gender identity through its meaning that you have your gender identity and assigned gender on the same side.
Thus to describe myself as cis is basically dishonest because it suggests I believe in something I don't believe in, rather as if a Catholic was going 'Ah, you're not a Catholic, you must be a Protestant' and I had to accept that description of myself or be called bigoted despite actually being an atheist.

FloraFox · 19/07/2013 17:32

Regarding the cotton ceiling, this was raised once in 74 posts by me as part of a point about the "penis is female" and in the context of the McNally decision. Your previous assertions Gosh that this was a very uncommon view in the trans activists community look weak given the mainstream response to the McNally case. As for not doing this with any other community, people are asked all the time to comment on the more extreme views represented in their activist group.

Spork "No one is trying to take away your struggle." How can you say this given the lobbying by transactivists to shut down RadFem2012, RadFem2013, RadFemRiseUp, no-platforming Lierre Keith even when she was speaking about environmental issues etc? This is exactly what is happening.

"You are fighting on the side of imperialists who kill us!" This is a gratuitous insult. I have stated my respect for any person's right to define their own fight against oppression.

"you might even learn something if you opened yourself a bit beyond what the systems have taught you" another gratuitous insult. Just because someone does not agree with you, does not mean that they are uneducated, nor does it mean that they are not listening Freya, people's views differ but it's clear some people don't respect that.

So what do you propose to do about the gains of feminism brought about by people whose views you don't like? Repeal equality legislation, reproductive rights, marriage and property rights, political rights?

"Your fight against gender ignores that it was White feminists who forced the gender roles in most other communities to suit their desires and oppress others" There have always been and still are women who aid the patriarchial system. What is the consequence? Should I not fight against oppressive gender roles because some women somewhere worked to impose them? You may find this overly blunt but not every fight is my fight. I don't feel the need to explain how every campaign or activism I might be involved in should benefit and include every woman equally just as I do not feel entitled to demand that every campaign by others includes and benefits me.

I don't know about your community Spork but women in my community have long been told by left wing men that class matters more than sex, all the while perpetuating oppressive gender roles to their benefit. It is obvious that intersectionality of oppression results in some women being oppressed more than others however I can't think of a single aspect in which it is not the women at the bottom of the heap, whatever heap that is. If a woman wants to engage her struggle solely within her own heap, I will not object. The more struggle against oppression, the better as far as I am concerned.

And please, do tell me more about how this discussion is tired. Is there a list I can consult of permitted discussion points?

WhentheRed · 19/07/2013 17:49

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WhentheRed · 19/07/2013 17:57

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FreyaSnow · 19/07/2013 18:01

Okay, I'll give an example FF.

Kritique has been on these threads before. Yet she says a. she doesn't understand why people don't like the term cis (explained many times before), b. that it simply means non trans (no it doesn't, explained many times before) and c. that it is equivalent to terms like straight (no it isn't because most straight people both understand the specific meaning of the word straight and agree it defines their internal feelings).

So either Kritique isn't listening or is attempting to deliberately make factually incorrect statements. I am sure if I went through these threads and assuming nobody has name changed (unlikely) I could find lots of examples of people doing this.

There is a purpose in people clearly stating opinions about what they believe, but I don't see the purpose in pretending never to have heard explanations of other people's feelings or beliefs so we go through the same thing over and over again.

FloraFox · 19/07/2013 18:40

Freya sorry I was talking more to Kim saying the discussion was tired and going on ad nauseum. I agree there are a lot of arguments made over and over again. I don't mind these where there is the possibility to take the discussion to a more detailed level or sometimes just for the benefit of new readers. I do find it frustrating, as you say, when people pretend that they have never heard things before or that trans activists don't say X then say well X is not a mainstream trans activist view when they clearly knew that view X is being put around by some people. There are clearly divergent views in every political movement. You can see, for example, divergent views from transactivists on oppression being based on biology in this thread where kritiq says she doesn't believe oppression is based on biology but then Spork says she's never heard of anyone denying this. I'm also tired of people denying that women's voices are being shouted down and they are not being stopped from fighting their oppression. Again, when examples are pointed out, they switch to justifying why they think it's okay to do this. However if people cannot distinguish between discussion and disagreement and shouting down / shutting down, it is perhaps not surprising. I don't encounter this style of argument or engagement from any area. I find gender theory to be profoundly weak from an intellectual perspective. It more resembles an article of faith or belief that cannot be objectively measured or referenced. I am starting to think that's why the arguments in favour of it move so quickly to insults, obfuscation and shouting down.

kim147 · 19/07/2013 18:49

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TunipTheVegedude · 19/07/2013 18:52

'I find gender theory to be profoundly weak from an intellectual perspective. It more resembles an article of faith or belief that cannot be objectively measured or referenced. I am starting to think that's why the arguments in favour of it move so quickly to insults, obfuscation and shouting down.'

I would agree with that.
I find that many of the genderists refuse to believe that for many of us there is a fundamental intellectual disagreement about the nature of gender at the heart of it. There's a readiness to believe it's because we're uncomfortable with people who don't fit neatly into the gender binary, that it's because we dislike transpeople, that it's because we're social conservatives.
Believe me, I'd love to be on the side of the people who don't get called bigots on this one, and I'd love to be able to totally accept the premise that gender identity is everything (it is not fun holding beliefs that you know your trans friends would be hurt by). But ultimately I don't believe that womanhood,the thing that we are oppressed for is a 'womanhood' dictated by a bit of your brain independently of either physical body or social context. And I do not believe that we can pretend those things and still fight the oppression effectively.

FreyaSnow · 19/07/2013 18:59

I'm not going to repeat all the points Kim has made before, but she has made it clear what her personal feelings about herself are, and they do not relate to the kind of gender theory put forward on tumblr and by various trans activists.

Kim, I have sympathy that you constantly have to make the same statements over and over again about your personal circumstances.

FloraFox · 19/07/2013 19:40

Kim I believe the only time I directed a question towards you about your own situation you told me you didn't want to make the thread about you. You have no obligation to justify yourself, I don't believe I have asked you to do so. You may not be a transactivist however we are entitled to discuss both gender theory and the impact of some transactivism on feminist issues and the fight against women's oppression. I'm tired of being called a bigot or now that I am on the side of people who want to kill Spork!

WhentheRed · 19/07/2013 21:02

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TiggyD · 19/07/2013 21:05

"men are getting a free pass to carry out the actual violence and murders."

I am tired of being told that I am the cause of violence towards and the deaths of people...

WhentheRed · 19/07/2013 21:12

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FloraFox · 19/07/2013 21:15

Oh look, a tiresome repetitive point that has been discussed ad nauseum.

FreyaSnow · 19/07/2013 21:18

I assume Tiggy is objecting to you referring to men collectively as the people carrying out the murders of women and masculine spectrum trans people.

I think the point Red is making is that feminists who don't believe in gender theory aren't the collectively group going out and murdering women and masculine spectrum trans people.

WhentheRed · 19/07/2013 21:22

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LittleSporksBigSpork · 19/07/2013 23:46

Red: Who said he's going to schools? His website's main traffic are those groups, young people who know nothing googling for answers. The only talks he's done is TED talks to adults well after his website gained mass following. He's not talking to kids directly, he didn't set it up originally for young people, but his website gets a lot of traffic from them so he designed it so even they could access the information. It's quite common for website creators to notice demographics who come through search engines and change accordingly.

About being oppressed and immune at the same time: People have lots of different identities, some are in power groups and some aren't. A White man who is poor still has more social power in many areas than a Black men with wealth, that doesn't mean the White man's lack of funds in a capitalists society doesn't oppress him. In the judicial system, White women are more likely to believed than a Black or Asian man and White women earn a lot more than Black men. I have a lot of negatives to my list, but I'm light skinned and will be taken more seriously than another Metis with dark skin. A ciswoman will have violence against her because of her sex and gender, but you will have a lower risk of bladder issues than any trans people from not having held it for hours in a public setting due to fears about using any restroom, people won't ask you your "real" name or about your anatomy upon meeting you, your inclusion in the media will not involve those either, you do not have to reveal your medical history for your marriage or civil partnership to be valid. There is not academia or popular articles about whether your identity exists or just another type of oppression. Here's a list other things you benefit from that trans people are not immune from.

Many deaths of trans* women that have been actively at the hands of ciswomen. Also support of a system that dehumanizes people is supporting those people being killed - the steps of genocide. And while your feminism may be focused on a fight against men, most other groups aren't, it's about trying to rebuild community equally. Because when we hurt, we turn to our communities, people of all genders - men included - because I'm far more likely to be hurt White ciswoman, and our men have their own issues but they're more likely to understand (as shown in the recent internationally shown row on the current American big brother with a White woman tearing apart the WOC, and the Black woman gets comfort from the Black man, not the other women, that's pretty much how we react in real life). I fear White ciswomen way more than I fear cisMOC, they've done me far more harm.

Flora - Most in my social that I discuss this are other women and genderqueer and class doesn't really come into it much. Even in my academic days, it's more the problems and oppression in the current economic systems across intersections than class. For us, it's intersectionality or it's bust. I've only heard it's all about class from fedora MRAs types.

And I never said anything about taking away what they did, just that they didn't do the grand things that their followers claim, that much of that effort for equality wasn't them at all but other whom they took the credit for, and it needs to be recognized that they hurt their own cause by their hatred of others. They harmed women's rights by tearing down others to boost themselves, by refusing to join with other oppressed groups against the systems. And those weren't women aiding the patriarchal system as they saw themselves, they were White women fighting for White feminism while having other women that they deemed not worthy do work. And it's still happening.

You may think I have no reason for those lines, but imperialism still kills people, still destroys lives (most of the anti-LGBT laws spreading across Africa right now are funded by American and British groups, people outside of the binary still killed for the ideal of the binary through these laws, people outside the binary in Native areas have a high rate of having their children taken away and more likely to be killed). Rigidly holding to the binary is part that, it's part of imperialism, it's part of patriarchy.

Your quotes are a bit purposefully selective - the one on your learning is about where I challenged you on your assertion that third gender/gender neutrality/genderqueerness was rare and down to hatred of women, and you still don't seem to see how saying that is foul ethnocentric imperialist bullshit. Many areas had more women's rights before European colonization, many cultures could teach radfems a thing or two about equality, but no, you dismissed other cultures as being less equal that you for having more than two recognised genders when you know nothing about them.

I've already identified as Metis repeatedly, and identified as coming from a culture with more than two genders. That's my culture, my people you've just dismissed as being less civilized than you, who've spent the last 500 years being told they're uncivilized and having that beaten, starved and killed out of them, people who are still going through genocides, still having their children taken away at rates you can't imagine (more taken now than in boarding school days), still having their land and incomes denied to them even when the UN is shouting about it, having access to food denied them, having their image made by White people who excuse it as child's play (see the string of recent UK ads with them), "honour" (Lone Ranger) and use it excuse rape (3 times more likely than White women) while our people are still denied the right to wear our their cultural items in public unless it is to perform, people who just had their right to determine their own citizenship destroyed by the academics in government who destroyed it with the imperialistic rhetoric that they, not us, can decide who is and isn't one of us so a Native child can grow up with a nice binary perfect White couple rather than her own father, and we're the ones who are less equal, less civilized. Don't tell me there is it's uncalled for to challenge imperialistic mantra. Challenging imperialism is the least I can do - I got out, 80% in Native areas will drop out before finishing high school because of imperialism in schools. We challenge it by existing.

And women aren't always on bottom. As I've said, in the judicial system, White women are more believed than Black men. White women get more representation and have more control over their image than pretty much anyone other than White guys. In terms of pay, oh the cries for "equal pay with men", when White women earn more than almost everyone but White men (the usual stats are always White Women to White men). The ethnic wage gap is widening. You're making great gains on bridging the gap with White men, congrats, you're also making great gains on furthering how much more White women make than other men and women. That's been the core of Western feminism since it's inception though - White ciswomen getting equal with the one group always above them, White cismen, the elites of whom made the modern systems and violently imposed it through the White poor. Rather than joining with your fellow oppressed people, you dissect us and bluntly tell us it's not your fight while patting each other on the back about how "radical" you are, feeding and spewing out their divisiveness that the elite White cismen put into their system to keep them on top. You're spouting the same disapproval of us that they have for centuries, the same denials of doing any wrong or having any power, that you're being uncomfortable about being seen as an oppressor is our fault. What exactly makes you different from the system again? Because I can't see any, you just seem like another part.

I should have already given up on this, but I can't help but wonder everyone going on about the "intellectual" discussion of this - you do realize we are talking about real people's lives? That the ivory towers and governments you're clinging to as the ultimate definers bring just as much oppression to every day people as every other system? That this isn't just intellectual wankery for many but how to cope with the real world where the cisgender get to decide what the rest of us have to accept as good enough? Where we aren't allowed to define out own oppression for ourselves, cisgender people get to do it. That we don't define our lives by gender theory and most of us don't give a fuck about it we just want to feel right about ourselves and have that recognised as normal and wonderful? Many people get tired when their identity and experiences are denied over and over. I'm genderqueer, being told that I just like to have many hobbies and I've been socialized into it (having been raised in the Bible Belt) is a bit of a slap for the wrestling and questioning and pain I've gone, and continue to go though that many have already admitted you've never considered. But like I said, I've been in academics, I have plenty of stamina for BS, but then I also left it because many things more important than intellectual debates.

To put it as bluntly, I don't care if it makes you uncomfortable to know that other people see you in league with the systems as an oppressor - that's kinda been out there for decades with Alice Walker's Womanism and everyone else. We've been fighting for ourselves a long time and we don't need people who can't see and fight for us as equals. And Western Feminism has made it very clear that you don't want us. We're told we'll be gotten to later, but that has never happened. Never has western feminism won something for White ciswomen and they turned around and made sure all the other women got it too even when other women did most of the work. Doesn't happen, we only get there when we fight for it ourselves. It'd be nice if western feminism didn't step on our necks to get where their going while we're trying to fight our fight, but we've fought this far with it there, we'll take if off ourselves in time together with those in solidarity with us. Which is why we aren't taking your fight, Western feminism has already made it clear that your fight isn't for us, it might want to "save" and educate us poor uncivilized souls, but it's never seen us as equals. I can't trust or fight along someone who can't see all of me as worthy of the fight for equality. So, I really need to stop being bothered by it I guess, but it kinda hurts to know that the main group to represent the fight has never given us any recognition or wanted us around unless it's to watch their kids while they go out. That womanism and all the other branches are needed so that everyone can get there and get support because western feminism won't recognise the difference in our fight, that academia seems to trump personal lived experience in Western Feminism's eyes. In the end, it just looks like another system getting the results it was built to get for all the other systems the elite have put in.

GoshAnneGorilla · 19/07/2013 23:51

But where does this discussion go?

The trans-critical people remain so and likewise those who are not trans critical. There are few new points, few new posters tbh.

It just seems like those who are trans-critical enjoy having space to vent about trans people but I have no idea what you want to actually achieve in the wider world.

Do you want the Gender Recognition Act overturned?

Trans women to be forever barred from using any women only facilities?

Is it the right to misgender trans people to their faces and say "No, what's your real name" when they give you a female one!

There's lots of hiding behind "discussion" and "sharing theories" but little about what you hope to happen.

Is it because you are embarrassed to say in front of a trans person exactly how you want to remove their rights and condemn them to a life of misery for the supposed betterment of womankind?

I am all ears.

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