Mid-career retention of women - "we need better childcare provision"

[tootsietoo]

This makes me so mad and I need to rant! I've just got round to reading a month old copy of my industry magazine which has a big feature on women in the industry. Several high profile women were interviewed and a feature of the article was that they were praised for having "brought up a family" and created a hugely successful career. One of them said something about needing better childcare. And another lamented the huge problem with retention of women in the industry mid-career. My blood is boiling. WHERE ARE THE FATHERS? Why does everyone assume that it is the mother's job to deal with the domestics? No one ever expects a father to go part time or work more flexibly when he has children or, heaven forbid, actually give up his job to look after them. And the few that do are some sort of god like creatures . Is it a surprise that a lot of women will not make martyrs of themselves by doing 2 full time jobs (if they have the choice - I know lots of women don't and they HAVE to do it all, mostly). How are we going to go about making it a cultural norm for men to take equal responsibility for their children? I am going to make damn sure my daughters know that they have to choose their future partners carefully if they want to have a job and career throughout their life AND children. It is not necessarily all the fault of the men either. So many women (me included) seem to feel they HAVE to do everything. And also seem to choose higher earning or more ambitious partners which gives them less power in discussions about who does the childcare.

Thank you for listening!

I know what you mean. All discussions on how to retain women in their careers that I've been involved in more or less end up in a discussion about childcare. I see that in the state we are in at the moment, childcare tends to be a big issue for women, but I think we simply need to do more than that. One reason is as you have said about partners taking equal responsibility. The other is that some research show that single women without children still do not progress as well as married men with children (in academia, at least). If we continue to be mired in childcare debate we will not be able to deal with this issue.

I agree that childcare is an extremely important topic. Having attended a few meetings about retention of women, I found that:

1. It is depressing, as you said, that this is a woman's issue.

2. There are women without children. They too face some mysterious barriers at work which has nothing to do with childcare. We never get to talk about that because we spend all our time talking about childcare. We alienate such women by not addressing their concerns.

3. I find that the lack of will of some employers in childcare provision means that we can talk all we like and provide as much flexibility as humanly possible, but in the end what is needed was the employer putting in some money. If that is not forthcoming it seems all doomed ... Again, it is, or ought to be, in everyone's interest to nurture the next generation, but no, it's a woman's problem ....

Women face more barriers than childcare. I find it frustrating that we never get to the bottom of that.

As it is, I make it my mission to substitute the word "mother" with parent/carer whenever I can and invite as many men as possible to attend meetings and give their views... Some say it's political correctness. I say there is not nearly enough of it.

Oh god how depressing.

How about we start a conversation about changing the outdated rhetoric that building a successful career depends on you being in the office 9-5 (for which read of course 8-7) five days a week... That worked when families had one breadwinner who was able to concentrate on work to the exclusion of all other stuff (and I don't just mean the kids there, I mean domestic work, arrangements for house maintenance, community activities, care of elderly parents etc too). But it simply isn't possible to function long-term if both adults in a family are out of the house 7am - 8pm, HOWEVER good your childcare provision.

Very good points op. One of the reasons I like my current job is we're a small team who all have children and the men seem to do as much of the childcare angst stuff as the women (eg last min annual leave when child sick, amending hours to do school drop off...)

I don't disagree, OP. One of my pet theories is that longer maternity leave lays down the pattern that "women stay off work to look after children, men go out to work" and it is really hard to shift away from that after eg a year. One of many reasons why we need split parental leave instead.

I agree to a point about needing to help women without children who hit the glass ceiling. But looking around where I work (civil service), with literally one or two exceptions the only very senior women are those without children. So although there is a wider issue about what is preventing more women stepping into the top jobs, I do think that there is a very specific children issue for mothers who want careers too.

No, I agree Bramshott, it is really hard on a family for both adults to be in full time work. It would be so much better if BOTH partners worked flexibly, or took career breaks at appropriate times, to allow BOTH of them time with family and time to enjoy a career!

Sorry, can't write more, got to stop my flexible work to rush off to sports day!

Absolutely this needs to be tackled as a parenting issue, and not soley a woman's issue. I'm a Dad, and it looks to me that the priority has to be on the children's needs, but the dialogue on this has to be expressed in terms of we rather than she.

women tend to be more likely to devote the most time to childcare. i don't think this is likely to change, because I think it is a biological impulse. i think women are more interested in spending more time with their children, and, on the whole, less driven to fight their way up the corporate ladder.

Biological impulse? What a load of shit.

Prom - exactly. Plus men and women are expected to devote more time to work than is necessary for the job as a factor of competition for promotion and men are able to do this if they have a wife at home who is making this possible. I know lots of men in this situation and most of them are not thrilled about it and would like to spend more time with their children.

Many DPs/DHs are older, therefore earn more.

Whatever, the feminist arguments for many of us DHs is the main earner.

What stopped me going back to work was small rural schools having NO before or after school clubs. Nothing. Very limited CMing places and that's it without family.

With the necessity to travel to any job, no amount of flexibility was going to let the parent doing the school run earn a decent wage.

It's not biological. I think we often put ourselves in the position of the man being the main earner very gradually by both partners placing more value on his work and less on hers. Women need to be aware of these dynamics right from the beginning of a relationship.

And I know plenty of partnerships where the woman earns more than the man and there is barely EVER any discussion about him downsizing his career.

I think you are right Louise 1956 that women are less driven to fight their way up the "corporate ladder". It's a completely rubbish macho culture and as flora fox said it works on the basis that the people who are working have no other commitments. The whole working culture needs to change to allow men and women to share the joys and burdens of work and family. You're quite right Flora that lots of men don't like the way things are set up either.

Actually, I do expect my DH to make some attempt at flexible working so he can do some of the childcare. And I know other mums who do too, although it's not yet the norm.

I agree that maternity leave sets a precedent that's hard to break. It sets the stage for mum doing everything, and we feel we still have to do it if/when we go back to work. Even though I have deliberately tried to step back and let DH do more, I've found it tough at times to let him and to stop trying to do it all myself!

And while childcare is an issue for some families, for others it's not. Too much of a focus on childcare as an issue detracts from some of the other, less obvious, barriers that are harder for women to overcome.

And also seem to choose higher earning or more ambitious partners which gives them less power in discussions about who does the childcare.

Yes, but why? Is it a biological thing where woman subconscious look for good providers?

And I do suspect if you take two parents, who earn an equal amount, the parent who has recently given birth is more likely to to want to care for the baby, while the other parent is more likely to want to continue working out of the home.

no.i really disagree that both parents need to work pt/flexi.thats mc woolly
why can't two parents work ft?what bit of two ft working parents don't you like
I have time with my family I really dispute your presumption I don't if both ft

your posts are peppered with appalling stereotypes
it's not hard on a family if both parents work,at all
maybe your world.not mine.we both work its positive,and enriching

UptoapointLordCopper

Beat me to it. I've never wanted children but employers don't see that.

There's been a discussion this week about how female doctors are 'wasting their education' or some such by working p-t once they have children. My friends who are female doctors have been unimpressed to put it mildly, although hadn't picked up on the subtext necessarily:

• men have children too. Shocker.
• lots of male consultants work part-time too - but because they are mostly doing private work on their day off, rather than childcare, this is somehow seen as higher status despite the net effect for their NHS employer being exactly the bloody same.

I very much agree that we need to move the discussion past childcare = women's issue and look at other factors such as part-time = career suicide. Are more men being prevented from doing childcare because p-t workers are regarded as second class citizens in terms of career progression? And what other aspect of the macho, presentee-ist culture is preventing childless women from progressing? Let's not forget, the burden of caring falls mainly on women still whether that is children or aged parents. The discussion needs to be much wider.

And btw I think few people would claim women had a greater biological imperative to care for ageing relatives.

I have a completely equal marriage. The reasons why are:

My husband is not older than me
He doesnt earn more than me
We both work full time
We work round each other and we evenly take leave days for child sickness/sports days etc
He does just as much as me at home and in return I cant say I am any more tired than I was pre children.

I cant say its hard on my family both working full time in fact its really easy as I am far from rushing around at home and I know dh is available to support me 50/50.

My partner (older, male) earned considerably more than me when we got together. Our salaries are now pretty much the same.

This didn't happen by magic, but because he was incredibly supportive when I was studying (while working full time) - he did 100% of the housework, I just came home from work & sat down to study straightaway, cups of tea & supper brought to me etc. We also moved several times to allow me to progress. None of the moves were bad for him, either - he did part-time/had a couple of breaks to try out a career change. His salary now is in line with his experience, before it was too low, so his career hasn't suffered by prioritising mine.

Now we have a son, and we've both dropped days so we can spend time with him. I doubt we'd have been able to afford that if we hadn't invested in my career.

The key is IMO that in order to achieve parity, you need to assume that it's possible and not just accept status quo.

I will add the caveat that it's early days, so I don't know if I'll be able to stay part-time and continue to make progress career-wise - we'll have to see. But I don't think it hurts to point out that my partner is looking after baby today - I'm hoping that will shake up assumptions people might make about our division of responsibilities for childcare.

I currently work from home, as a Childminder, full time (50+ hours) and do the bulk of the housework and obviously all the childcare.

DH takes over with our DC when he gets in at 4.30 and does housework at weekends and in the evenings (things like putting on a load of washing and mowing the lawn).

I am in the process of securing a job out of the house to start in September, very full on, 12 hour days and late evenings. DH is very supportive and we have what I hope will be wonderful childcare and two backups.

But oh my god, some people's reactions.

Even the guy interviewing me asked how I'd deal with childcare, and I was a bit icy in my response (that DH woudl deal with all that, I've done it for eleven years and it's his turn now).

My mum and sisters have been well meaning but think I'm mad, and also that it's unfair of me to expect DH to do so much childcare/housework/cooking. Eh? But it's ok for me to do it?

It's a bizarre and outdated concept that the woman has to place childcare and cleaning above all else and that the Man Of The House can concentrate on his career without worrying about all that nonsense.

It is bizarre and outdated, absolutely. But so ingrained! scottishmummy, I'm sure my posts are full of appalling stereotypes, I'm just starting to realise how much I've sucked up the norms and conformed to expectations without working out whether they worked for me. and it's great that you have a set up that works for your family. I do have two good friends who both work full time, and they are very happy and their children are completely lovely happy well balanced people - of course it works. peteypiranha, that is brilliant

rubyanddiamond, I had not thought before properly about the maternity leave issue. of course it needs to be split equally between the partners. that was a big problem for me. I had been out of a really client-facing, transactional-type role, where contacts and up to date market knowledge are really important, for a year, and there is no doubt that that made it harder to go back to work. as far as I can see, the only practical issue that makes it harder for the mother to work out of the home soon after birth is if she chooses to breastfeed. and that can be overcome with some pre-planning.