Mid-career retention of women - "we need better childcare provision"

[tootsietoo]

This makes me so mad and I need to rant! I've just got round to reading a month old copy of my industry magazine which has a big feature on women in the industry. Several high profile women were interviewed and a feature of the article was that they were praised for having "brought up a family" and created a hugely successful career. One of them said something about needing better childcare. And another lamented the huge problem with retention of women in the industry mid-career. My blood is boiling. WHERE ARE THE FATHERS? Why does everyone assume that it is the mother's job to deal with the domestics? No one ever expects a father to go part time or work more flexibly when he has children or, heaven forbid, actually give up his job to look after them. And the few that do are some sort of god like creatures . Is it a surprise that a lot of women will not make martyrs of themselves by doing 2 full time jobs (if they have the choice - I know lots of women don't and they HAVE to do it all, mostly). How are we going to go about making it a cultural norm for men to take equal responsibility for their children? I am going to make damn sure my daughters know that they have to choose their future partners carefully if they want to have a job and career throughout their life AND children. It is not necessarily all the fault of the men either. So many women (me included) seem to feel they HAVE to do everything. And also seem to choose higher earning or more ambitious partners which gives them less power in discussions about who does the childcare.

Thank you for listening!

we share our childcare,both work ft.sharing is attitudinal isn't linked to pt or ft role
commitment isn't equal to ft availability,again it's attitudinal.yes that presentism need challenged
but I do think women visible,active in work is good thing.mummy track isn't for everyone.lets not present it as a given

My dh does 4 long days and so he does all childcare on that day.He is still in a supervisory role, and has a good chance of getting a managers position in a few years as we are both only young. It can be done.

DH and I both work full time, and it isn't a struggle, but we do have to put a lot of effort into making it work.

Eg he is away from Mon am to Thurs eve this week, so all the drop off and pick ups will fall to me. Which will have consequences (rolled eyes, tutting), even if I then log on later on and do another four hours work in the evening. Next week he will do most of the drop offs etc so I can "make it up". We have to negotiate constantly re competing work pressures.

I can't ever see the situation changing where a high-paying job / career is not going to demand long hours which are probably not pt. otherwise it means employing more people, and where is the money for that? I don't mean pt/jobshare, but compensating for high-earners' productivity.

I say this as a mother who is in such a job, and the main breadwinner.

Dh worked fewer hours when the dc were small, although still ft.

The key, I think, is to tell our daughters to choose a partner who will play an equal role.

I also agree that it's mainly women, at least ime, who choose to earn less in order to pick up more of the childcare/domestic stuff - but is that because they don't assert themselves enough at home and /or at work?

My daughters are now young adults, lovely high-achieving and happy young women despite being in ft childcare when young - and dh and I have decent pensions in prospect because we kept working. But society doesn't paint this picture, preferring to demonise mothers who have the audacity to assert themselves and build up a career.

familiessharegerms what is the difference between a struggle and putting a lot if effort in

tiggyd maybe someone could offer a Monday to Friday boarding nursery so we wouldn't have to bother with our kids while trying to pursue our careers

In my male-dominated industry/area I see senior men who are firm about having a day a week wfh/leave in time for nursery pickup/are occasionally not there because the kids are sick and it's their turn. So I'm hopeful.

slightlysoupstained I see that happening too where I work (also traditionally male-dominated area).

That happens most places they have to let mums and dads equally have time off or everyone would just sue.

I don't think this should be about parents. I think everyone should have some flexibility to pursue whatever is important to them at whatever stage of life they might be. Do we believe that a happy and fulfilled workforce is an efficient workforce, or is that just lip service? Of course this will take some managing and some give-and-take, but may be it is possible? Am I too idealistic? (Maybe I am. Hey ho.)

LordCopper Wasn't there talk about extending the right to request flexible working? Agreed that it would help if people saw it as just a decision to trade some money for a bit of extra time to spend with family, pursuing a course of study, getting to the beach a bit earlier on Friday to go surfing, etc, rather than a Now My Career Is Done, Put Me On Mummy Track Please irreversible decision.

Have had a few folks sound a little surprised, but approving of DP dropping a day for childcare. Some have been young men with pregnant partners, & you can see them getting thoughtful. Hopefully it may encourage them to consider a wider range of options with their partners.

I tild DH to do his share or get out

I dream of the day that men will also have to "consider their career" when thinking about starting a family

Both parents need to be prepared to make some adaptations / sacrifices

Only then will women have an equal chance in the workplace!

The other thing that annoys me about our 4d/w arrangement is that DH continually gets congratulated for being such a great dad. My mum, his parents, just about everyone, raises an eyebrow and says "isn't it great he's so involved". Yes, I agree it's great but I am just as involved!! Oh, and apparently I am so lucky he is like that. The phrase just grates.

Like others have said, it will take generations for ideas to change. small steps, eh.

That happens most places they have to let mums and dads equally have time off or everyone would just sue.

It does, but it was incredibly rare to find any man availing himself of this right in the past. Let's not underestimate the social pressure on men not to jeopardise their careers with things like childcare or carer responsibilities - when did you last hear of a guy in his 50s taking time off to care for his elderly parents?

Inevitably attitudes will change the more commonplace it becomes for a guy to say "I'd like to WFH on Fridays in order to do the school run". I think I still have a way to go in my own family; my oldest brother (someone terribly important in a global firm) told me that when his wife (someone quite important in the same global firm) was on business in Europe one time "do you know, I had to leave work to pick ds1 up from nursery because he was ill?" No shit sherlock.

One of the "good practice" documents I read also suggests that managers for male workers should ensure that they are not stigmatised if they chose "non-traditional" working patterns.

I think people need to address challenge their expectation of other women who are parents
I think housewives do enact a stereotypical role that feeds into expectation women give up work
I think women need to be visible and participative at work demonstrating isn't given will quit work

"I think people need to address challenge their expectation of other women who are parents."

Agree.

"I think housewives do enact a stereotypical role that feeds into expectation women give up work"

Yes. However, mothers are not housewives. To bring up children should not be thought of as "giving up" work, as if all paid work is superior to bringing up children. This needs to be addressed.

"I think women need to be visible and participative at work demonstrating isn't given will quit work"

Yes. Hence the importance of facilitating this. Childcare is only part of it. Partners taking equal responsibility is another part. Part-time/flexi-time is another part. Swiss army knife, not sledgehammer, IYKWIM.

I am back at work full time now, after working part time for a few years.

I feel great, DH is knackered though and certainly the house is a state, stuff like that is harder to keep on top of than when there was someone here to do it a couple of days a week without the kids here.

I guess we need to make adjustments and farm stuff out more but it is a bit of a shock.

I do think that having both parents working full time is harder than any combo where there is one at home sometimes, just in terms of kind of getting basic stuff done. But if that's what you're doing then you make it work as best you can. When I went back to work FT my dad said "who's going to run the house" which at the time I took as a terribly sexist comment but now I realise he had a point.

As for the OP totally agree with all the posters who have said that childcare being a "women's issue" and strangely the only one ever mentioned are important points.

So I suppose my point above ties in that childcare / housework is all work and it doesn't get done by pixies.

Certainly I find it harder work being at home than going out to work - but that is obviously different for everyone. Probably if my job was digging ditches with my bare hands - or god forbid working with young children - I would be red hot keen on staying at home. Circs innit.

who's going to run house is sexist if addressed only to female,inferring house=women work
same question addressed to both,is a query.unless you live longleat no house needs ft running
biggest myth ever sold to women was have it all. not possible.you work ft something gives. you housewife,career gives

I read somewhere a while back that "opting out", or prioritising lifestyle over job is a Gen X characteristic. So perhaps by the time us Gen X-ers are all through a more flexible working culture will have developed.

ime,opt out is privilege of the affluent,or those who've built up career/qualifications /marry well
opt out?and do what?my career is structured and hierarchical.
opt out isnt realistic option for all.ive always wanted in,not opted out

Yes exactly.
When my dad said it, i took it as a sexist comment.
But actually, it is a reasonable question, and he didn't say it in a way that implied I should do it, but that someone somehow would need to.

I kind of get the feeling that the concept of house / child stuff actually being work that someone has to do has kind of been eroded. And that bizarrely my often unthinkingly sexist father seemed to have more of an idea that these things amounted to work, than you would imagine somehow these days.

sm opt in is unfortunately unaffordable for many though.

Ideally all would be able to mix and fit according to personality skills etc. And wages / costs would be such that many more people had genuine choice.

Yy sleepless