Mid-career retention of women - "we need better childcare provision"

[tootsietoo]

This makes me so mad and I need to rant! I've just got round to reading a month old copy of my industry magazine which has a big feature on women in the industry. Several high profile women were interviewed and a feature of the article was that they were praised for having "brought up a family" and created a hugely successful career. One of them said something about needing better childcare. And another lamented the huge problem with retention of women in the industry mid-career. My blood is boiling. WHERE ARE THE FATHERS? Why does everyone assume that it is the mother's job to deal with the domestics? No one ever expects a father to go part time or work more flexibly when he has children or, heaven forbid, actually give up his job to look after them. And the few that do are some sort of god like creatures . Is it a surprise that a lot of women will not make martyrs of themselves by doing 2 full time jobs (if they have the choice - I know lots of women don't and they HAVE to do it all, mostly). How are we going to go about making it a cultural norm for men to take equal responsibility for their children? I am going to make damn sure my daughters know that they have to choose their future partners carefully if they want to have a job and career throughout their life AND children. It is not necessarily all the fault of the men either. So many women (me included) seem to feel they HAVE to do everything. And also seem to choose higher earning or more ambitious partners which gives them less power in discussions about who does the childcare.

Thank you for listening!

Yes - as another example of how ingrained it is, my cousin works as something in information services and was seconded to the Olympics last year. Very full-on few weeks, crazy crazy hours getting all the stats collated after every event for the press etc. Even my own mother, a die-hard feminist, said "of course, [cousin's DH] had his mum to help with the kids every weekend" er, WHY? I'm sure in reality he could cope but was not averse to the kids seeing their granny at the weekends so didn't say no on a point of principle :) But why on earth would the father of two 2 year olds require assistance to look after his own children?

However, it is vitally important that we aim for parity for every family, not just where it is possible for the two partners to earn the same amount (not that I think the previous posters were suggesting that was a pre-requisite). I have literally never been asked how I juggle work and childcare, but that's because everyone knows my DH is chronically ill and unable to work, so I have 'no choice', therefore the question doesn't arise. I'm pleased to say that in my current team - where I am, as I nearly always am, the only woman but virtually everyone else has small children too - we are all constantly juggling childcare, home responsibilities and work, despite all of us having a SAHP.

Ha, yes, dh is at work today and no one would suggest Ineed any help with my dc. But dh has ready been offered help from my mum and his mum for when I work weekends. Weird.

Interesting thread. There's a thread in AIBU about the doctors issue. I started it there because I was irate!
In my own marriage atm dh earns considerably more than me. This is for two reasons. Firstly he graduated a year before me and started work whilst I had our first daughter a week before doing my Finals and didn't start work until she was 15 months old. The other reason is that (through full time work) he has developed a rare and therefore expensive skill set whilst through part time ish (for the last 5 years I've worked 34 hours over 5 days so I think I should be calling myself full time!) work I've developed a valuable but less lucrative skill set. Domestically we're pretty on an equal footing. He seems incapable of mowing the lawn but loves dishwasher emptying, hanging out washing, bathroom cleaning. I tend to do most of the ironing because he's too slow. We split care of sick children. In fact he probably does more because he can work from home and I can't. Though expensive childcare has not been a barrier issue for me (or him). What has been a barrier for me and I didn't expect this at all was my maternity leave with dd3 which stalled my career. I was acting up in a job before going on leave. Shortly before my leave finished another job came up which I and the man who covered my maternity leave applied for. Interviewing after ten months on leave I was told I didn't do as well as I could have and the man got the job. 5 years later he still out earns me.

It works for me as my dad always looke after us whilst my mum was at work and he never needed any help. My mum and dad would be outraged if dh couldnt cope on his own with our children. Its my normal and always has been.

no women aren't less driven than men in career pursuit. some people are less motivated. by career
more likely is societal expectation,habituation drive expectation women give up work
and of course preference,some women don't want to work ft after kids. and some do

anecdotally I've never had jip about going back ft from an male. plenty comments, and the face from women

no one asked my dp if he was going back to work.assumed he was
I got asked at baby group,hv,etc.....why?

I expect it's unintentional but fair whack of your posts feed into stereotypes eg women less driven

Oh yes the "why work when you don't absolutely have to?" type comments
Yet it is assume DH will work, even though he doesn't technically have to

I work because I want to. I enjoy it.I'm good at it.wont be in penury if don't work
see it on mn,the grudging well I suppose if you have to work,as if only compulsion make it justifiable
and yes I am driven.no silver spoon,no bank of mum and dad.just me

Well I do have a silver spoon and bank of mum and dad (should I need it). But I still work because that's what I choose to do.

SM - I think it was me who first raised the point of how difficult it is if both parents work full time, so I'll try to explain what I meant.

First, I put in the important caveat that I meant "parents who both work full time in offices where they have to be out of the house from 7am - 8pm every day" (fairly standard hours these days, if you have any sort of a commute). And also I said "long term" - by which I meant for a period of longer than 5 years while their kids are living at home.

I'm trying hard not to stereotype, but I do struggle to see how that can work in the long run unless you have a live-in nanny who is will to be super-flexible WRT clocking off times, prepared to take full responsibility when parents have to travel for work, and be responsible for all after school activities and homework up to secondary age. And also if you're happy that neither of you are going to see your pre-schoolers from Sunday night to Saturday morning. I can see that working for a few years, but long term it must be a struggle, particularly if you have children who need extra help and input with homework etc. Of course, many of us, both men and women, get round this by having some sort of flexibility in our working lives that enable us to work from home on occasion, or go in late sometimes, or take the afternoon off at short notice and pick up work from home later - bizarrely all things much more easy to organise at senior exec / board level than lower down the ladder.

why are you struggling?we work ft,out house 7ish and one if us collects for 6
it replicates what a lot of working families do.we plan,we're organised.it suits us
this was always the plan,I booked nursery at 12wk pg.working ft isn't insurmountable at all

I'm really pleased to hear that it works for you SM, but is it not quite unusual to be able to ensure that one of you can be there for pick-up at 6pm each day, without negative career consequences? I don't know many people who could manage that.

Most full time workers manage to get there for 6. Our breakfast and after school club has mainly full time working parents, and they all manage it.

it's not unusual in the least to get there for 6.between two adults we can do it
yes there may be late meeting etc but we plan around that
up and down country working parents negotiate this daily,as I said not insurmountable

Hmm - maybe DH and I need to move fields! In both of the industries we work in you might just about manage that for a couple of years whilst your kids are small (and by using a nursery very close to the office) but it would massively damage any chance of career progression or promotion.

Despite being in a senior professional role I've found many women (rarely men) expecting me to justify why I have gone back ft. I tend to give a little laugh say "it's funny -DH never seems to get asked why he works ft". Shuts must of them up.

I started a managerial position when dc2 was 9 months. Dh is also in a supervisory role but both are quite flexible so it hasnt been a difficult transition.

it's sad but I've never had jip off a man about ft work,only women
the precious moments crew
I do work from home occasionally and on work apropos when dc in bed

Are there any sevices people would like from a nursery that would help with childcare? Would longer hours be useful? Overnight stays? More flexibilty on days so rather than having Monday,Tuesday and Thursday booked you could use the nursery as and when you need to?

I don't think it's unreasonable or contradictory to believe all of the following:

1 - Fathers should take a more active role in childcare (this will take time and attitude changes)

2 - Building a successful career should not involve working extended hours (this will take time and attitude changes)

3 - Better childcare provision will help women in the situation that we have now, while we work on 1 and 2

Totally with you, OP.

DH and I both work 4 days/week, we both applied for p/t working with our employers at the end of my mat leave. Which sounds great, but while it was almost expected that I would return pt, DH had a real struggle to get his employer to agree. His team leader openly questioned DH about why his wife wouldn't be picking DD up from the childminder. A few words with HR sorted it out, but the attitude from his (mostly male) colleagues and local hierarchy is fairly shocking.

He has ended up sidelined, pushed into a different role which he is not particularly happy with, because apparently his previous role couldn't possibly be done on a 4 day week. (DH doesn't agree)

Whereas I am congratulated for not falling asleep at my desk.

He has also been told he can't have the promotion that had been (informally) agreed before he went pt, because the hours he works means he isn't taking his career seriously. I think most employers are now not stupid enough to say that to a woman working pt, at least.

Thinking about it makes me

(we do very similar jobs, btw. very large engineering companies)

what if both parents want to work ft,both happy to do so?don't want to work pt
pt working always sold as the panacea to concern about female representation/ progression
what's the benefit in both parents dropping hours/money.my trade off for ft work is money and job satisfaction

Well what if they do, scottishmummy? Are you saying it's unfair to full-timers to treat part-timers equally in terms of career progression?

The point is choice. Amusing as it might be to frogmarch all parents out of the office on Thursday lunchtime and revoke their passes til Monday, as a way of achieving gender equality some may find it a little extreme (Btw as would locking all parents in the office Monday to Friday).

I'm saying let people chose hours they want to work,don't presume pt is desired by all
I hope all are able to maximise their potential and progress on ability in work
I've no qualms working ft,Suit me.these threads always throw about pt as supposed optimum

some people might not be able to afford all the childcare they need for both to work full time. By sharing the load then both get to keep working if that is what they want.

just been watching clare balding on emily davison on more4. fascinating! they managed to change the law, but changing the culture is taking a bit longer.