Anyone watching 'The other Boleyn girl'??

[Italiangreyhound]

Seems like a pretty crap time to be a woman (or a girl)!

Anyone know how true it all is??

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Boleyn_Girl_%282008_film%29

My old history teacher loved telling us about Juana the Mad. In retrospect it gets my feministy hackles up a bit.

Sorry LRD!
Yes, the men probably felt entitled. I'm trying to think if I've read any letters stating their view and I don't think I have - you just generally get the women moaning about it. I wonder if dear Norfolk mentioned Bess Holland to his confessor.

I think it was me being unclear.

I suppose the 'men's views' would be letters to their new lovers, or legal proceedings against unfaithful spouses. So in that sense, we've got Henry's responses to both situations in a way.

Preachers' manuals have guidance for what to say to scare adulterous couples into obedience, so I guess people did confess it, or it became public knowledge.

It's not the same, but dear old Margery touches on her DH's views when she decided to stop sleeping with him because of her all-encompassing passion for God, IIRC.

Ha! I keep dear old Margery by my bed. I'll have a look tonight.

Children grew up, either betrothed already or conditioned that they would marry xyz. The important ones I mean.

As usual, it's a little early, but there are records of what men thought about adultery in court cases.

Witnesses testified that Isabel Newport of London was physically violent, openly adulterous and verbally abusive towards her husband, and they also claimed she burgled his house and was in an incestuous relationship (sound familiar?). A male witness said it was 'dangerous' for her husband to live with her because he couldn't 'govern' her. The author whose book I'm reading (it's Shannon McSheffrey, FWIW), reckons that while adultery could be something a woman was upset about being the victim of, it wasn't thought to reflect too badly on her, as she wasn't meant to be able to control her husband.

Male adultery could even be grounds for a woman to get a divorce, with the idea being that the man could no longer claim to govern his wife.

Finally, there's a Philip Cruce living in Shoreditch who was formally recorded to have died of sadness because he caught his wife committing adultery. There's also a wife of another man recorded as dying for the same reason.

These are fifteenth century examples but it's not such a different time and legal precendent wouldn't have moved fast.

Still, I think Henry had a really peculiar sense of all of this stuff, and I think for him it was all confused with those postures of submission in courtly literature - he wanted to be in charge and to pretend not to be.

porto - YY, and if you were a woman I guess that conditioning would be doubly strong as you would also grow up conditioned to see yourself as your father's property.

I think in Catherine's last letter - if it was written by her as there are doubts as to its authenticity - she has the welfare of her daughter uppermost on her mind.
She was not likely to have written a scathing attack on Henry.
I think he was powerful and nit
Mis early 40smstill a handsome and imposing man, if a little pretentious.
Wasnt one of Anne and George bolyens crimes laughing at Henry's poetry!?

I agree. She would have known she had to plead for Mary.

And Anne's letter to Mary was her pleading for Elizabeth. She knew Elizabeth would be declared a bastard. Henry was about to marry Jane, who might well have a son. No one at court was going to give a toss about Elizabeth, except perhaps her sister (ironically because she knew exactly what it was like to go from being apple if Henry's eye to outcast).

Yes.
And Mary was very find if and very good to Elizabeth when she was young.
Until Elizabeth grew up anyway.
She even praised Elizabeth in her Letters to Henry!
I think Mary was a genuinely kind and loving person.
Elizabeth wasnt, but was a better queen for it perhaps?

The laughing at Henry's poetry thing is in some of the Chapuys despatches in my link.

I like eustace chapuys :)
He seemed a very clever articulate and fair man.

That was proof that she was really evil, wasn't it.

I mean, laughing at her lord and husband.

I think it's a bit unfair to characterise Anne as being wholly awful to Mary. There were overtures of friendship to her long before she fell from favour - way back as far as 1534 in one case, when she looked unassailable - sometimes, in the face of repeated insults from (stroppy unhappy teenager) Mary. Looking at the letters, you almost feel sorry for her, she comes across as trying hard in the face of (totally understandable) intransigence on Mary's part.

And all the really nasty things that were done to Mary (disinheriting, insisting on her recognising the Act of Succession etc.) were not done by Anne, they were done by Henry. After Anne's death, Mary still had to toe the line before she was accepted back in court - which shows that it wasn't just Anne who was behind the horrible treatment of Mary, Henry was at least as responsible for it.

Well, she dissed Norfolk. Women aren't allowed to diss Norfolk.

Isn't diss in Norfolk!!? ;)

I'm not sure Catherine ever really had the welfare of Mary uppermost in her mind. If she had given in to Henry's wish for an annulment, she and Mary would both have had a much easier time. henry would have been kind to them both, as he was to people who gave him what he wanted. but she chose to fight.

She wasn't concerned so much with Mary's physical comforts as her status it's true. But I think she would have seen that as far far more important.

She was very pious, though. She wouldn't have seen annulment as an option, I think - she'd have seen it as putting her soul in jeopardy. I think she really was that religious.

I agree she was a woman of principle; in fact, Catherine of Aragon is one of the great heroic figures of British history. I think she saw her duty to her daughter not to assure her comfort but to protect Mary's position as Henry's heir. Catherine was hoping for support from many sources, foreign and domestic, which would have been considerably weakened if she had agreed to a diminution in status for herself and her daughter. She firmly believed in Mary's right to rule and in Mary's ability to rule; Catherine had her own mother as an example (as well as Catherine herself, who had been named regent for Henry when he went to war with France.)

I think Catherine fought for Mary too.

What an interesting thread - I do love a good discussion on anything Tudor related but especially regarding Henry and his wives.
Personally the aspect of Anne Boleyn's demise that has always struck me most is the speed at which events happened.
From the arrest of Mark Smeaton to the execution of Anne the timespan was three weeks, a frighteningly short time.
Anne was never going to come out of it alive, her executioner had been ordered before she stood trial so despite all the evidence that she had been elsewhere on various occasions she was doomed regardless.
The men were also tried and found guilty before she was - clearly they could not be guilty if she was innocent. Smeaton was the only one who admitted the charges and that confession was extracted by torture.
Henry also had his marriage to Anne annulled prior to her execution - technically therefore they had never been legally married so it does beg the question how could she then be beheaded for adultery if the marriage had not existed ?
Henry wanted her gone in every way possible, he did not wish for a repetition of circumstances with a previous wife still living. However despite all the planning to remove her, nobody thought to provide a coffin and she was buried in a hastily acquired arrow chest !
I do find it striking though that he had a tendency to marry strong women, all of his wives with the exception of Katherine Howard presented some intellectual challenge to him or showed great strength of character.
Katherine Howard though is the one I feel most pity for - a young girl, out of her depth and probably giddy with the status and opportunity being Queen of England (though she was never crowned) gave her.
I will never understand Jane Rochford though, having played such a crucial part in the events surrounding her husband and sister in law she aided and abetted Katherine in her adultery (unlike Anne, Katherine almost certainly was unfaithful with Culpeper), she knew exactly what the consequences would be yet still ...
The wife I most admire though is Anne of Cleves who used the opportunity of her divorce to her advantage and gained not only property but status for the rest of her life as a result.

I liked Anne of Cleves, Catherine of Aragon and Catherine Parr. Katherine Howard sounded wild, Ann Boleyn and Jane Seymour, happy to get between a man and his wife.

Mmm. I struggle a lot with that, TBH. Katherine Howard, 'wild'? Anne and Jane 'happy to get between a man and his wife'?

Isn't Henry, or the other men at court who were pushing these women around, to blame?!