The invisible men project

[ArmyOfPenguins]

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

Where i agree that those reviews are generally pretty grim, some of them are not as bad as peeps are making out. Just clicked on that link and the first one (latest) was regarding a woman falling asleep on the guy, so he stopped immediately and then she shouted at him and went off smoking a pipe, so the guy decided to call it a day. Which doesn't seem too unreasonable. It appears that most seem to be taking issue with the fact the woman is not into it and wanting more emotion/ interaction, with some even saying they shouldn't be doing it at all. Surely this is a good thing that they are warning others not to use these women and hence not put them through any more hardship of doing something they are really not into. I would imagine the net result from these reviews would be more people choosing the 'Brooke Magnanti' types or so called 'happy hookers'. It may also put some people of it completely if they were on the fence about it as those reviews certainly don't paint a pretty picture.

Personally it is not something i find appealing or would ever consider even if i was long term single and desperate, however it would be quite interesting to hear more about those who do and their reasons for doing so as you have just pointed out DadWasHere. I only know of one friend who has used a prostitute. It was in Amsterdam and he did it to lose his virginity. He was 22 and depressed at still being a virgin. Think it was just a one off and he's married now.

WhentheRed "I am not quite sure what the point of your post was but took it to mean........."

Jesus H Christ, I despair! My post was a direct reply to Catlike and the claims that 1) "There is no such thing as a male escort for women." and 2) "Women in this country DO NOT pay for sex unless it's as a couple.".

Where or how did I fail to make that clear?

I then went on so say it IS a cross gender activity; when both genders are both buying and selling sex then it IS a "cross gender activity" by any standard definition. I did not suggest that one gender is primarily more involved with selling or buying or in any way enter into the "dominant" side of the activity or discussion in THAT post, did I?

I even clarified with: "I am not diminishing the undesirable attitude or behaviour of male punters here, I am simply saying it's certainly not male exclusive" and STILL you took it the wrong way. What language must I use in order to be understood correctly?

To reply (to you in particular) on your other point regarding "equal opportunity", it depends on YOUR interpretation of "equal opportunity" I think. But if we use the correct definition which is "absence of discrimination" then in terms of gender I would say, based on the evidence, that from the punters' position yes, it is because either gender can buy sex with ease. From the sellers' position no it's not, far more men buy sex than women. However, in terms of race, with a significant number of white female escorts opting NOT to meet with non-white punters then I would say that overall, no it is NOT 100% "equal opportunity".

Beachcomber

"So now the justification for the institution of prostitution as it currently exists in patriarchy is "Women Do It Too "."

Where did I attempt to, or even mention justification? What is it with you (and Red), that makes you totally alter the point or meaning of any post or discussion beyond what was said (or posted) as though you are almost trying to put a hidden agenda never mind words, in my mouth?

My post was a direct response to the Catlike's claims that women do not not punt, some women absolutely do.

"No they don't."

Is it pantomime week already? You can repeat that over and over until your obvious hatred of men consumes you beyond recovery, but it won't change the absolute true fact that........

Yes, they do!

Back to your "justification" smoke screen above, there is no justification so it is not something I would suggest or even contemplate.

what makes the p n e t comments so repulsive and entitled is the total lack of awareness of the politics of sex.

the total lack of awareness of privilidge.

the total lack of actually looking at "punting" as not being one individual encounter after another.

the total lack of taking into account of the socio-political context and culture which exists between women as a class and men as a class.

the comments all show practically pyschotic lack of empathy and chilling objectification.

and the ones saying perhaps the woman shouldnt be in sex work reek of entitlement too. the men are not concerned about the women - they are warning other punters to not waste their cash on a women who fails to hide her distress and suffering at having sex she does not want with strangers. women who dont manage to hide the fact that they are being raped and hating it.

this attitude is inhumane. but it is typical of male supremi

Back on topic, good. Beachcomber Hope you don't mind, I've separated a comment to address it separately:

what makes the p n e t comments so repulsive and entitled is the total lack of awareness of the politics of sex.
the comments all show practically pyschotic lack of empathy and chilling objectification.
this attitude is inhumane.

First, I agree with you on all that you say there.

"the total lack of awareness of privilidge."

Genuine question: Is this privilege the standard version; a privilege given by a man and a woman to each other voluntarily, willingly and with equal desire, or something else?

sghueks read my posts properly.

I didn't say that women don't 'punt' ever.

I said;

So now the justification for the institution of prostitution as it currently exists in patriarchy is "Women Do It Too ".

No they don't.

Women do not dominate society, class themselves as being higher status to men, oppress men through the mechanism of a sex based hierarchy and then insist that a class of men be globally available to be penetrated.

Women as a class do not to any of those things.

This is a class political analysis - which is what feminism does. Analyse. Politically. Examine Class Behaviour. Within A Socio-Political Context.

Nice for you that you can reduce it to 'ho ho ho' pantomime level but actual real live human females do not have that privilege.

You seem to know a lot about 'punting' websites and forums and spend quite a lot of time on various ones. Why do you do that?

"Women Do It Too" is a shortcut that is used a lot in feminist discussions and which it is useful to understand the political usage of. From your posts it would seem that my use of it has gone over your head. It is a tired old lazy way of justifying male violence against women by pretending that the political playing field is level - feminists see it all the time and we recognise it when we see it. It is also used to take the focus off men's choices and to invisibleize male behaviour.

Genuine question: Is this privilege the standard version; a privilege given by a man and a woman to each other voluntarily, willingly and with equal desire, or something else?

We are talking about the standard political definition of privilege as in 'male privilege' / 'white privilege' etc. This is very very basic politics and feminism 101. Again.

It is interesting how often men seem to have very strong opinions on women's issues and show a tendency to tell women what to think about female oppression whilst simultaneously showing a (privileged) ignorance of many of the basic concepts women use to analyse and discuss male supremacist society and female oppression.

Beachcomber Thank you for clarifying, so without getting into a pedantry/grammar issue I think this......

"So now the justification for the institution of prostitution as it currently exists in patriarchy is "Women Do It Too"."

"No they don't."

Should have ended with "No it doesn't". And in that case I agree with you, of course is doesn't and as I said, there is no justification.

Also I didn't reduce "it" to 'ho ho ho' pantomime level I was commenting on what read like panto in your responses, a comment which has nothing to do with my views on the actual subject matter.

The reason I am aware of punting sites is that I became interested in this subject due to something which happened in life. As one site linked to another I read them out of interest and became active in a few of them. My interest is waning.

The "Women Do It Too" shortcut is largely irrelevant with regard to my posts and comments, whether it went over my head or not, because I was not justifying anything I was simply responding to Catlike's statement that "women do not pay for sex" and correcting that untrue claim, nothing more.

You are correct that I didn't understand about privilege under the "feminism 101" definition. I have found this which seems to explain; male privilege

It seems to me that in western society we have a few absolutes, some which never change, others that have.

Men and women are different, this will never change.
Women can be and do anything, this was not true years ago but now surely is, so has changed.
Those women who want to be whatever they want to be don't talk about it, they do it.
Women in general don't really want to change their position in society, and those that do sit and talk about it while expecting men to make the changes for them.

What feminism seeks is for men to behave differently while offering no explanation as to why or for what reasons. A bit like being married.

Don?t known that there is any more to tell libertarianj, its only my recount of limited personal experience, there would be research into male psychology and documentaries on the sex industry that would offer far more insight. About the only thing relevant to this thread is that the linked website did not appear to have comments in it from the men I encountered who seemed dysfunctional rather than...hmm.. deluded or abusive (not that I read that many comments... gross objectification of women is not something I care to plough into).

I think the dysfunctional subset really needed psychological help to try and create a framework where they could relate to women in a positive way. They were certainly not the real evil type, those particular bastards would look sideways at the asian girls working in our shop and whisper the vilest garbage. I did not own the shop otherwise I would have told them to f-off right quick, but doing that could have cost me my job.

The reality of prostitution for many women

From the article:

In the second stage, undercover officers will patrol the areas to challenge and target kerb-crawlers. First-time offenders will be sent on a course entitled Change, while persistent kerb-crawlers could be given antisocial behaviour orders banning them from certain areas. Posters will also be displayed in the affected areas warning people of a zero-tolerance approach.

PC Summerfield said: "When we have done similar operations, it has worked brilliantly so, hopefully, this will too. We want to help the women who are doing it, educate them and reduce the demand by targeting the kerb-crawlers."

I'm not sure if your problem with pedantry and condescension is worse than your sense of privilege and entitlement sg. You seem to lack awareness that you are making very tedious and uninteresting comments while failing to grasp even the most basic notions of feminist approaches to prostitution. You have no idea what feminism seeks nor why, which is evident from your posts. You're like a pub bore with your inability to conduct a discussion on anything other than your own terms, use of spurious points and useless evidence and shouting over anyone who disagrees with you or pops your pompous bubble.

Wow! Totally couldn't see that coming.

A male punter comes onto FWR to tell us we're all wrong about women and feminism.

The 'wake up call' moment was quite fun though, right up until the peacock like display of male privilege shown by:

Back on topic, good.

and

without getting into a pedantry/grammar issue I think this....

with the final coup de grace

What feminism seeks is for men to behave differently while offering no explanation as to why or for what reasons. A bit like being married.

Hundreds of pages, links to endless resources and countless discussions offer no explanations. Could this be because they were written (on the whole) by women, and therefore don't count?

same shit different day

My emotions at reading sghueks posts

for Beachcomber and the others I am in awe of your painstaking patience with this poster.

And?

And your point as regards this particular discussion is what?

Well exactly abowtus. It isn't a 'rescue' and its not what any of us on here are proposing. But hey ho. Make up shit if that's how you like to spend your day.

Yes of course you do abowtus.