a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

do you know, really nice men rape too. a girl i went to primary school with was raped and murdered by a nice guy when she was 16. her murderer coached children's sports teams, was a family man with 2 kids, had plenty of friends, was a hard worker, churchgoer and all around great guy.

and a rapist.
and a murderer.

i could give two farts in a high wind for the psychic pain men or boys might experience at the very thought that anyone might think they are a rapist.

That's horrible, chibi.

Btw - does anyone (other than sausage) actually know men who experience this mysterious angst at the very idea that anyone might think they could be rapists?

I don't go around worrying that, because I own a car, everyone must assume I am going to get involved in a hit and run, or that because I have knives in the kitchen drawer, I therefore have the potential to stab someone.

As far as I understand from them, DH and my male mates don't assume that, just because they're in possession of a penis and technically able to put it into someone else's body, everyone is going to be assuming they're rapists-in-waiting.

Well no, nice men don't. But I take your point.

It is the one I endlessly drone on about here - that child abusers can look gorgeous, be charming and have a great education and career. So ditto rapists.

Actually talking about respecting his own body began early with my ds, as it did with DD in order for him to understand that his body is private. If we are teaching boys how to protect themselves from abuse (in age appropriate ways) that begins conversations about our bodies and autonomy. Well it did for me.

Were you able to speak to the school Or teacher about your concerns, sausage? Or any of the other parents to see how their children had taken the lesson?

No, I suppose that's true, I'm talking about 'nice men'.

And I totally agree - you can't at all tell from how someone seems superficially, what they might like on the inside. And by the time you find out, it can be too late. Especially if you're young.

I am so bloody pissed off, I've just discovered that a post of mine from last night was deleted on the grounds that I didn't specifically mention that when I talked about "other men", "the good guys" standing and watching in silence without disagreeing with them and they're validating their behaviour, I didn't specify that I didn't mean ALL men.

This is what MNHQ said:
"you are implying that all men who are not actively threatening women, are in fact colluding with abusers. We completely understand that this may be your opinion, and you are entitled to express it, but the way your post was worded made it sound like a fact.

Just one wouldn't say "all women love housework", you can't say "all men stand with abusers and validate their behaviour".

Had you said, "it is my opinion that by not speaking out, men are in effect validating abusers", that would be different, and we wouldn't have deleted it."

Is this reasonable? Am I overreacting to be so annoyed by this?

Eh?

I don't follow. I didn't see your post but I don't understand MNHQ's objection.

It is certainly true that, in not speaking out men are in effect validating abusers. Men have a position of power in our society (as a class), and their actions carry an awful lot of importance.

I thought this was very much what all of us have been acknowledging recently with the whole sad Jimmy Saville issue - that Saville's behaviour was validated because no-one spoke out, so his victims were left with the impression that what he did, wasn't going to be punished.

If I've said something against guidelines, I accept this post will be deleted, but I really confused and I can't help wondering if something's lost in translation.

I don't mean to come across as doubting you at all, obviously, but since your post has gone I can't really tell what's going on!

I'm going to report this one of mine so hopefully they can tell me if that's not an acceptable statement, and why.

Yes I don't want to print the whole of the e-mail in case it's not the done thing and maybe I shouldn't be taking it up here but I'm so fucking pissed off about this that I wanted to get opinions from people who might have actually seen my post and thought it was out of order.

I just feel that it's a wind up - MNHQ deliberately made this place unpleasant for a lot of Rad Fems and got rid of them and I feel like it's being moderated by people who would rather have MRA's here than feminists. It has just utterly pissed me off because I deliberately try not to break the posting rules and I feel that this has been interpreted so ridiculously - the idea that I am insulting men as a group - when these bloody trolls can come on and say "feminists hate men" or "feminists just want men for sperm" or whatever and not get deleted because it's fair comment.

I am fucking incandescent about it tbh.

Btw, I think there is a huge difference between a statement like 'all women like housework' and 'by not speaking out, men are validating abusers'.

The first is a generalization, and it's insulting because it's not true and treats women as a homogeneous group.

The second isn't a generalization, since it is qualified. It only refers to those men who don't speak out.

There is an uncomfortable truth (IMO) that as a society we need to get better at dealing with abusers. I certainly don't accept that it would be ok to know of abuse, and not to speak out against it, if you're in a position of power where you saying something could help the victims. IMO that's the position men are typically in, so I would think getting men to speak out against abuse is hugely important.

I know I value it very much when they do, and I'm sure others do too.

fastidia, I can't help feeling this must be a misreading of some kind.

Based on what you say, it makes no sense at all.

Sounds very unreasonable to me too. Daren't look back at how many of my posts have been deleted on that basis then

So does that mean saying something like "all that is required for women's oppression and subjugation to continue is for good men to do nothing" would be deleted?

Not surprised you are livid either.

oh. so, if someone watches others doing or saying misogynist things, and chooses to not speak out, they aren't colluding? and implying that their refusal to condemn is equivalent to approval is wrong?

all these years, when i thought there was something like a minimum standard fir human decency, it never occurred to me that it might be wayyyy too much to expect from most nice men

Fastidia - just seen this - I'd read that post last night. It was quite unremarkable (in a good way IYSWIM) and def. uncontentious compared with lots of other stuff that is being allowed to stand - other goading/set ups/misreadings etc. The HQ explanation is muddying it too.
fwiw.

It is amazing how victims of abuse are sooo often accused of colluding with their abusers because they do nothing. Yet when it is applied to men (who aren't the victims even) it is wrong.

Personally, I would expect (or hope, because I am less sanguine that I should be), that most normal men would spend quite a lot of time in their everyday lives speaking out against abuse.

I'm gobsmacked if they don't, TBH. I know men who have made it very clear how they feel about rape or child abuse - they don't condone it. It only takes a moment to say, no, I don't accept that rape is ok, and I don't think victims should be ignored.

I think it is this kind of day-to-day stuff that really makes a difference. Someone saying, wait a minute, I'm a man and I don't agree that this is normal.

It just takes someone to say, no, I don't look at a woman who's drunk and in a short skirt and think she's an easy target. I don't condone other people doing that. Or, no, I don't believe it is acceptable to claim you thought she was consenting and just forgot to check.

There are so many things men can say - and lots of men do say - and it matters hugely that they do.

kim,in my own life, someone says something racist in front of me, or misogynist, i speak out and tell them to quit that shit.

i am just a woman, not a nice guy, so i don't assume that being nice is an escape clause from actively trying to avoid being an oppressive arsehole

Wow, just wow. On that basis lots of my posts will go pwoof too.

Fastidia - I am sure that I read your post and agreed with it, and you were not targetting another poster or insulting anyone as far as I could see.

I am shocked that that was deleted

I have to say, I'm thinking it over, and I am pretty sure I've been told that 'women do x' or 'women think x' wasn't a deletable statement.

I remember those horrible posts by the guy who was later banned (Edd?), who used to post disgusting thinly-disguised rape apologies, and I really struggled with those.

... and you are allowed to say that feminists hate men.

You are also allowed on other parts of the board to say that "men just don't get domestic chores"

Is FWR being targetted by the silent reporters?