a question for the men here

[Mitchy1nge]

what makes you think you have anything of real value to bring to discussions about women's experiences and expectations?

obviously some men can make interesting contributions (although those sorts of men don't often announce themselves here) to some discussions but generally, on the whole, everything everywhere else is already pretty saturated in Male Voice so was just wondering where you got the idea from

Are there any other areas of their lives where you teach your sons that they aren't responsible for their behaviour Sausage, but that someone else is, or is it just in their sexual behaviour?

How odd.
My son is a teenager and he would find a discussion about rape and respect and sexual consent incredibly interesting.
It's odd to think education shouldn't involved exploring these things.

Exploding at a teacher was probably a fine example for them though. Teaching respect through example and all that

"How dare you tell my sons they are responsible for their own behaviour!"

"It would be better if men married Third World Brides ..."

I am reading this, on a Feminism/Women's rights board ? Are my eyes deceiving me ?

Yes I'd like to say that it's amazing that someone can advocate men purchasing a trafficked or desperate younger, vulnerable woman to abuse as his chattel as a good idea on the MN FWR board, but when MN made it clear that this sort of view was welcome here "to balance" I suppose it became inevitable that various types would post such things.

I don't want to speculate on Sausage's future daughters-in-law.

Shit, AF, I missed that on first read about brides, my eyes must have run away from it.

I'm sure the teacher also says "don't steal, cheat, lie, be a bully" etc -I'm reasonably certain one of the goals of education is getting children to grow up as g

Shit, AF, I missed that on first read about brides, my eyes must have run away from it.

I'm sure the teacher also says "don't steal, cheat, lie, be a bully" etc -I'm reasonably certain one of the goals of education is getting children to grow up as g

...good people. I'm happy for teachers to get that lesson over as much as they can.

I wonder if Sausage explodes at teachers who tell kids they shouldn't steal as well, as it damages their development being treated as potential thieves?

The problem is when groups of people who have an unfair advantage lose their unfair advantage, they feel it as an attack on their basic human rights to have that unfair advantage. All would be well if only women would stop demanding to be treated as equal human beings and black people weren't demanding to be treated as if they have the same right to be treated as full citizens as white men. Well guess what, re-instating an unfair advantage, is not the solution to the problem of white working class masculinity. Re-constructing masculinity and race is, but that would take acknowledgement of the fact that you've had an unfair advantage and a willingness to give it up. That ain't gonna happen soon because let's face it, no-one wants to voluntarily give up their unfair advantage, do they?

YY to this FastidiaBlueberry. And the rest of your excellent post.

Great posts mathanxiety.

This is where we need men in feminism - to sort out masculinity and male privilege and what they do to boys.

Yes

And this is where the regular male posters need to stand up and be counted. Do they feel their development was damaged by being told not to rape women? Or do they not feel they were ever told not to rape women (they were told it was women's job to stop them - the men - raping women)? Do they feel that the best way forward for men to have happy marriages, is to purchase vulnerable much younger women from far away places so that they can abuse them in comfort?

It's pretty counterproductive to exclude men from a conversation that exists to further equality between the sexes. Surely that's obvious?

No, it's not. Why do you think it's counterproductive?

I think it's time - and I know this has gone on for years including Pre the splitting of this board - to develop selective hearing. It's obvious who is here to derail and generally shit stir. Ignore them. Carry on the conversation without them.

There's absolutely no need to engage with them.

EC much of the latter part of this thread has been pointing out where it would be an advantage if men engaged more

Suasages How on earth can you write these same things in one post?

1. I've taught my boys to respect women and that rape is wrong
2. I think that marrying young brides from the Third World makes sense.

How can marrying young, vulnerable women be a sign of respect for them? You say that you have taught your sons to respect your DD. So, if your DD (along with all of her close family) is ever in a financially desperate stuation, would you be happy for a rich, older man from another culture completely different to hers (China/ Iran for instance) to come along and offer her and the family financial security as long as she goes thousands of miles away to live in that culture (possibly never seeing her family ever again) and agrees to have sex with him (even though she may not find him attractive/love him)? Would you feel that, should all that come to pass, your DD was being "respected?" Of course, we can't go so far as to say this would be rape because, don't forget, your DD would have agreed to have married the man and he wouldn't be hitting her or anything, or even holding her down, so we could not make him feel awful by implying that he could be performing rape. But, still, would you be happy with this set up for your DD?

No. Because it doesn't "make snese." And, though you won't admit it, you must realize deep down that this was a ridiculous thing to have said. So, in that light, be very open minded and go back and consider how nonsensical many of the other things you've said might actually be.

Yes Beach, capitalism is patriarchal, as is the class system.

The feminisation of poverty is as a result of changes in the method of production and is due to ownership of the means of production. Women's place in feudal society would be due to her sexual relationship to men and her economic status would be shared. Under capitalism less workers are required, women have different skills more adaptable to demand, women entering the workforce devalues labour because there is now too much surplus labour. Middle class women who have educational advantage over working class men, cheaper to employ (why?), more part time work being made available and middle class incomes falling meaning that more married women now work, this has effected working class women in several ways. There is less work, two wages are needed, their male counterpart can not find work, her wages are devalued etc,......

Is there a crisis of working class men? yes I believe there is and I believe this further disadvantages working class women.

I watched an interesting programme last night about class and taste. The artist Grayson Perry went round the uk looking at the tastes of working class, middle and upper class people. What was interesting to me was the way in which the working class men behaved. These men were spending a huge percentage of their income on sabauru cars and tattoos. They were concerned with impressing not women but other men. This is the key I believe to understanding patriarchal society. The competition for status & resources btw men.

Off to read the rest of the thread now

Hi mathanxiety, have enjoyed your posts a lot about NI on this thread - can you point me to some further reading? (a book or any web reading) Thanks!

Lets make this clear, I was trying to show that at the moment I am worried about my boys futures. I didn't say a word about trafficked. You assumne that all the foreign brides in Sweden are all trafficked? The you must assume that the increase in foreign husbands is.. actually no because the increase is down to the fact there are less men now available.

The implication is that I want my boys to have wives who want a partnership, it seems that certain feminists want men to provide insemination and funding and thats it. That is the attitude I am against.

As to my boys knowing right from wrong, they not to steal, not to kill and not to rape. Do people really think that ramming it down children's throats is a brilliant idea? When your 13 y/o son comes home upset and asking is he really going to be a rapist then yes that teacher has serious fucked up overstepped the mark.

Asto your opinions of me..... well its a computer screen so I will take as much notice as ?????

I don't know any feminists who want insemination and funding.
Are we confusing real life with an article in the Daily Mail circa 1973?

If my 13 year old son believed that one can become a rapist simply because a teacher says it is possible, I would doubt that he had had a great education up to that point.

Eh? What is insemination and funding?

What's feminist about that?

I agree with pag here. Surely if a teacher told you it was possible to rape, they would also be, erm, telling you it was wrong?

At school we discussed things like the ethics of murder in RE lessons. It didn't make any of us go out and kill people.