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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Five men facing death penalty after bus rape

522 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 13/01/2013 19:15

BBC news link here

I'm feeling conflicted about this. Obviously what these men did was horrific, vile and unforgivable. But I just cannot agree with the death penalty.

I feel like I am somehow excusing what they did by not wanting them to be killed, and I can't emphasise enough how despicable I find their actions.

Does the fact that they violated the poor woman's human rights so violently and abhorrently mean they should have their right to life taken away too? Am i being too soft?

I suppose I am asking how you all feel about this, how do you think they should be punished? Also have you ever had your feminist views conflict with other principles, and how have you dealt with this?

OP posts:
mindosa · 14/01/2013 11:47

Wants - I think you are missing the point.
Trills is saying that she is against the death penalty for anyone - regardless of their crime.
Unless you visit the crime upon the perpetrators then the punishment will never fit the crime.
Do you really want to live in a society where this happens.
This has nothing to do with being a woman or a man. It is due to how you believe society should deliver justice. Luckily most countries believe in solutions that ensure that society as a whole remains humane, even though some members of society will exhibit (like these men) pure evil

WaynettaSlobsLover · 14/01/2013 11:50

A question for those who don't advocate the death penalty for these rapists- do you genuinely believe in reform for rapists who also force their penises inside newborn babies and penetrate them to death? You think they will be reformed and never do it again? If you have the balls to see what I'm trying to get across, google the case of Brianna Lopez, and see whether you think her father and uncle deserve a life in jail or to be killed. People on here are on the same footing as those disgraceful judges who let paedos and rapists out after a few years of good behaviour. Only to find funnily enough that they go and do it AGAIN. Only way to stop the subhumans is to end their lives. you should be fucking ashamed of yourselves and Jyoti, one of many victims, would be ashamed if this attitude too.

Trills · 14/01/2013 11:51

stop the subhumans

They are humans. Not subhuman. Humans who did a bad thing. But still human.

AllDirections · 14/01/2013 11:53

Only way to stop the subhumans is to end their lives

This

aufaniae · 14/01/2013 11:54

Those of you advocating the death penalty - would you be happy for a random innocent person to be selected and killed along with these men?

Because that is what supporting the death penalty amounts to.
If you have a death penalty, innocent people always get killed.

It's very easy to say 'we'd only kill people if it's beyond reasonable doubt', but back in reality, our whole criminal justice system is based on "beyond reasonable doubt" and look how many miscarriages of justice are discovered / people are pardoned later.

How about those convicted on "expert" evidence for example, but then advances in technology ten years later show that that method of gathering evidence has holes.

WaynettaSlobsLover · 14/01/2013 11:56

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CelticPromise · 14/01/2013 11:59

This is getting a bit extreme, calling people disgusting for their perfectly reasonably held views. It's really not uncommon to think that all people are deserving of humane treatment regardless of their crimes. It's called human rights.

mindosa · 14/01/2013 12:00

Waynetta
Sexual abuse of childern is not something I am well informed about and I dont really know if the perpetrators can be rehabilitiated but if someone killed a child then they should face life in prison.

I also have a question for you - how do we decide what crimes deserve death and how do you kill people.
When you know that the death penalty isnt a deterrant are you still happy to use it.

WaynettaSlobsLover · 14/01/2013 12:01

And sorry but my view is that unfortunately it may be on the very rare occasion an innocent person may be killed, but you have to weigh it up. If there was a put down policy backed up by sufficient evidence in all cases, the Evil people in this world would decrease dramatically. Quite simply, semen samples and witness statements as well as victim statements and the background of perverts would be enough to ensure they could be wiped off the planet, never to harm and innocent child, man or woman again. I would sleep better at night if that was the way of the law worldwide.

CelticPromise · 14/01/2013 12:04

I'm sure new evil or deeply damaged people would be born to replace them Waynetta. Perhaps a gene could be found, then we could drown them at birth Hmm

noblegiraffe · 14/01/2013 12:06

But then you are killing people not based on their crime, but on the quality of the evidence against them. Someone who commits the same crime but uses a condom so doesn't leave a semen sample (or whatever) in your scenario wouldn't be killed, where someone who did, would be.

Trills · 14/01/2013 12:07

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WaynettaSlobsLover · 14/01/2013 12:07

You make a ridiculous point and an absurd one Celtic. You know how evil someone is when they grow up and do terrible things Hmm

WaynettaSlobsLover · 14/01/2013 12:09

Human rights human rights!!! Jesus I could laugh at some of you if it weren't so tragic.

WaynettaSlobsLover · 14/01/2013 12:11

Aww lets five some human rights to baby p's killers why don't we. After all, they did a dreadful thing but they still deserve kind and equal treatment. Shame same cant be said for Peter who was starved, beaten to death and abused by both the mother and her boyfriend.

aufaniae · 14/01/2013 12:13

Waynetta, no, I don't think people who commit such heinous crimes will be reformed. I think there's a lot wrong with our criminal justice system. I don't think crimes agains property should be in the same category as heinous crimes agains people.

I do think deterrents can stop people from embezzling, from example. I don't think they are so effective against serious abusers such as paedophiles, nor that we should see any length of sentence as being enough to "repay society" for the actions of such people.

That doesn't mean we should allow the state to kill people. If murder is wrong, the state should not be doing it.

I think people who have convicted such heinous crimes should be locked up for life with no chance of parole.

I also think that - once locked up - they can also be very useful to us in terms of working out why some people become serious abusers, and for catching other such criminals, and this is a point which is often overlooked

I don't believe children are born to be abusers - something happens along the way. What is that? Is there anything we can do to stop it happening? Are we supporting children who have been abused enough? (Some go on to be abusers themselves. Most do not. What makes the difference?) While we don't fully understand how people end up becoming abusers, I think it's actually against the interests of society to kill them - scientists and researchers should be given access to them instead to try to use whatever information we can gain from them to make society a safer place. We can also gain information from them which will be useful in detecting new crimes / finding the perpetrators.

A practical example: it used to be commonly believed that flashers worked up to becoming rapists and abusers - that there was a kind of scale they graduated through. From talking to rapists, professionals have found that some of them like to flash women. It's not something they used to do, then moved on to rape. It's something they still do. That's not to say all flashers are rapists, but it's useful information in that the police should probably treat flashers a lot more seriously than they do now, and quite probably consider them as suspects for rapes.

If we kill all the rapists and paedophiles, we are missing a change to make society safer for the rest of us.

Killing them is more about revenge IMO than anything else; it's making us stoop to their level, and degrades us all IMO.

Also, as I've said, if you kill murders and rapists, you are effectively sacrificing innocent people to make that happen (this is inevitable!) and that can never be justifiable.

Trills · 14/01/2013 12:14

Do you think that by naming more criminals you will suddenly hit upon one where those of us who believe in humane treatment of criminals will suddenly think well that crime is worse than all the others you have mentioned so I will change my stance?

CarlingBlackMabel · 14/01/2013 12:15

I do think they 'deserve' to die. I will not mourn them.

But in principle I cannot support the death penalty. It does us no good to come down to a criminal's level and turn to killing people, not for any reason at all. For me the absolute standard is that killing people is wrong, and the fact that a murderer, or in this case murdering rapist, killed someone does not mean that our society should demean itself by crossing that moral line.

aufaniae · 14/01/2013 12:16

Waynetta you think it's OK that innocent people get killed if we have the death penalty? Really?!

So would you be happy to be sacrificed to make this happen? Or one of your DCs?

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers · 14/01/2013 12:18

trills don't really care what it says about me as a person.
Whether death or otherwise, these people deserve terrible punishment.
And I think justice can and should be retributory. Basic principle of criminal law. Retribution is one of the purposes of punishment.
It's laughable how we have a bunch of bleeding hearts actually talking about rehabilitation of these arseholes.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers · 14/01/2013 12:20

Also it is an established principle of Indian law that the death penalty is only deployed in the "rarest of rare" cases.
These people need to be made an example of.
The justice system and the sentencing system are so skewed against a rape victim, it's not funny. When they have a clear cut case (if they do) a little bit of an example will go a long way to make others think twice.

mindosa · 14/01/2013 12:21

I am amazed at the lack of rounded thinking on this thread.

Zombie And I think justice can and should be retributory

So who is going to rape a rapist or torture a torturer?

Consider how far you are pushing this.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers · 14/01/2013 12:22

AND let me point out that the reason this is being taken so seriously is to some extent western outrage but also huge domestic protests across the country. The country does not treat its men and women equally. There are too many cases where rapists have not got what they deserve. This could turn the tide a little if sentencing is stringent enough.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers · 14/01/2013 12:24

mindosa considered. Don't care.
The balance is tipped so badly in one direction that I don't care.
I'm not saying rape the rapist. But don't go namby pamby on them and talk about regret and rehabilitation and all of that.

mindosa · 14/01/2013 12:24

Zombie - It wont turn the tide of how women are viewed. There needs to be far more work done than simply killing these men. That will be quickly forgotten.

The US has shown that the death penalty is no deterrant.