Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Good piece on sex work by Laurie Penny

497 replies

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh · 20/12/2012 15:43

Here. She puts it a bit more elegantly than I usually do...

OP posts:
Frans1982 · 15/01/2013 00:56

I did a quick search on adultwork just now.

On AW there are 12,910 female escorts who have logged in within 7 days (suggesting they are active).

And there are 6,245 male escorts logged in within the last 7 days.

There are escorts listed for almost every area of the UK.

That's where the trade is in the UK. Gone are the days when punters would drive around the city's RLD, now punters browse AW and similar sites and make online bookings.

katiemummy2012 · 15/01/2013 01:21

yes i agree they are sabrina, but how many of them are actually out there (in the UK)?

I've never seen a street walker in my whole 30 plus years of living, but there seems to be thousands of women online selling sex for over £100?

plus its regards to illegality, all the activity where desperate women are earning £20, are trafficked etc is already illegal and enforced, its only the likes of women on AW who are earning a lot of money whereby its legal, so I dont get the debate really?

It looks to me like the women that need it are protected by law, and the women that dont need it are free to do it if they so wish (I read they even have to pay tax?!!)

FranszAWanker · 15/01/2013 11:15

"pretty much all of them sounded completely happy and at ease with what they are doing, with lots of mentioning of most clients being described as 'lovely' and 'normal"
Well they're not going to say that the clients are a bunch of scuzzy shits are they? Prostitutes are making money so it makes sense to 'report' that the clients are 'lovely' and 'normal' for repeat business. I'm sure some clients are more 'normal' than others. Lets not forget that some clients request younger prostitutes do act out schoolgirl fantasies. Some clients wants to dress up as babies. Some clients enjoy watersports. Some clients like to 'give' and 'receive' domination. I looked on AW site and saw some of the preferances. Made my stomache turn.
If my DH visited prostitutes I would not be defending him as I wouldn't be that stupid or naive.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 15/01/2013 12:00

Frans, according to the Home Office there are an estimated 80,000 prostitutes in the UK in any one year (and they acknowledge that this is probably an under-estimation) - I don't think your search for active users on AW proves that street prostitution/brothel or saunas have disappeared. I agree that the internet has given prostitutes new and alternative opportunities for advertising, but it hasn't eradicated all other types of prostitution. Furthermore, it isn't the 'cure all' answer to the safety and security of prostitutes, either, as FartyBean's link shows.

Punters wanting to pay a high class escort will browse AW and the like. They may well be fooling themselves that if she costs £200/hour she will not be damaged, vulnerable or drug addicted. But, as prozachelps earlier link shows, this is not necessarily the case - high class prostitutes can suffer emotional, psychological and physical damage too.

Punters who want to pay £20 for a quickie in his car will cruise the RLD, and as the Eaves survey shows, is unlikely to care if she is drug addicted or pimped. Punters not wanting to pay £90/hr, but not wanting to kerb crawl either, will maybe pop into a brothel and probably be able to negotiate £40.

Research has shown, and continues to show, the damaging nature of prostitution isn't limited to the illegal streetwalkers and brothels. All of it, high class or street, is dehumanising. Being 'picked out' from a line of women (be it a real life line of women in a brothel or a virtual one on AW) and being reduced to an empty sexual object. No matter how the high class prostitute dresses this up as "empowering" they are still being reduced to a commodity.

If we're looking at this at a societal level, the exploited come before the empowered. All prostitution is bad for women's status and equality.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 15/01/2013 12:02

Katiesmummy, I'm not saying that a prostitute earning £90/hr is poor - I'm saying that there are prostitutes (not necessarily on AW Hmm ) that earn far less - as my earlier list from The Independent shows. Street prostitution does still exist, despite you and Frans being happy to brush it under the carpet. So do saunas and brothels where the women will earn £50-80 and then have to give a portion of that to the owner. Police may sporadically enforce the law on these establishments - but there are still plenty of them around doing business. There are also still plenty of street prostitutes, just because you haven't seen one "ever in your whole 30+ years of living" doesn't mean they don't exist.

Punters reducing women's bodies to commodities damages the status of all women, Katiesmummy. Why do you think that your dh felt he had the right to buy another woman's body? Not all men with wives busy with the children turn to prostitutes - the majority of men do not feel either entitled or enthusiastic about paying a woman to have sex with them. Most men would prefer women to enter into a sexual relationship, whether a casual ONS or longer term, enthusiastically and willingly - not because he is paying her.

MiniTheMinx · 15/01/2013 12:25

"So 5 sex workers in the UK have been killed while at work? I wonder how that compares to the number of police officers, cornershop staff or bar staff?"

How do we know it is only 5? we don't. How do we know that the cockle pickers are the only trafficked wage slaves to have died? we don't because we don't know how many trafficked people we have working in the uk in the black economy.

FranszAWanker · 15/01/2013 15:17

"I've never seen a street walker in my whole 30 plus years of living, but there seems to be thousands of women online selling sex for over £100?"

Perhaps not but you can bet your bottom dollar you have been in close proximity with a prostitute with the "thousands of women online selling sex." Many more advertise in free local papers. And others stand out in the street. Your DH may have exchanged money with one and unbeknown to you, you may have been standing in a supermarket next to one. Women don't have sex for sale tattooed on their foreheads for all to see - just like like your DH and other punters don't have "I pay for sex behind my DWs back" tattooed on their forheads.

FranszAWanker · 15/01/2013 15:33

How many adults thought they knew it all at 18 years of age? How many 18 year olds think they are invincible? How many of those 18 year olds finally grow up years down the line with regrets? It is disturbing to see young women 18, 19 and early twenties offering 'barely legal' sex for sale and then reading the 'field reports' left by punters on the AW site. Some punters (married or single) describe the prostitutes as the best 'fuck'/'shag' they have ever had and others describe them as sluts, whores, filthy bitch etc, etc as they describe their fuck session time spent with the prostitute.

Frans1982 · 15/01/2013 15:45

oh look someone went to the trouble of making a troll name just for me.

"you can bet your bottom dollar you have been in close proximity with a prostitute with the "thousands of women online selling sex.""

I bet you're right. Escorts tend to travel to their client wearing ordinary casual "civilian" clothes. If the client wants them to wear something naughty the escort will take this in a bag and then change into it when she arrives at the client's place. You would not know if you passed an escort on the street who was on her way to work.

And this is why I was strongly against Trish Godman's (a retired MSP) proposal only a couple years back in Scotland to criminalize "facilitating prostitution" which would criminalize taxi drivers who drove escorts/clients to each other. How the hell are taxi drivers supposed to know who is an escort/client???

we don't because we don't know how many trafficked people we have working in the uk in the black economy.

In 2009 we had Pentameter Two operation- a massive operation involving every police force in the UK who spent 6 months busting into 822 random homes, saunas and brothels in the hunt for trafficked victims and their perpretrators.

Some police forces made no arrests, some falsely claimed they made arrests to sound good, some made arrests for petty things like cannabis and we arrested and convicted a small handful of genuine traffickers (2 we already knew about). What a success!

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

This next link highlights the fact numbers on trafficking are often vastly exaggerated:

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated

katiemummy2012 · 15/01/2013 19:54

FranzA, the site im talking about doesnt allow clients, its for sex workers only and is anonymous so it wouldnt affect their business if they did say they were all rapists etc

attacking a straw man a bit there :S

katiemummy2012 · 15/01/2013 20:00

Im not defending my DH at all hes a cheating toerag, I am stating my honest opinion on the whole thing after reading a lot about it, I do not believe for one second that most of those women have serious issues or on drugs, its OBVIOUS from their 'profiles'!

Dressing up as a baby has nothing to do with babies or sex, its about regressing back to a stress free time of life with no worries and being taken care of, are some people on here really that unknowledgable?

You say 'some' clients like to schoolgirl fantasies, so do some men who dont visit prostitutes, some people have a shit fetish, not everyone is the same

surely acting out their fantasies with a willing adult who is just roleplaying is better than them trying it on with schoolgirls for real? I agree its distasteful and not very nice and I would leave a H with this fetish but its not something any femmes can stop really is it? People have their fetishes and clearly some people are willing to cater to them for money

I dont see the problem, as has been said forced prostitution is illegal, street walking and looking for street workers is illegal, so are pimps and so is trafficking, so what else is there to make illegal? The women on AW, earning money, working, paying taxes and doing so of their own free will?

I dont see how that is a feminist argument at all to be honest. xx

katiemummy2012 · 15/01/2013 20:13

Sabrina as far as I am aware from my rat of a H the woman he saw (numerous times, I might angrily add) was very enthusiastic (unlike me apparently :() thats why he went back to her, spending £1000s

I am not talking about my H here who doesnt have any weird fetishes he went to the woman purely for exciting sex again as apparently he hadnt done it with me since our DD was conceived, I dont know why DH felt the need to pay for something but he told me it was because he loved me and wanted to keep our family but was more attracted to the sex offered by 'escorts' :(

During the time following my DHs betrayal I looked up lots of prostitute sites on AW and elsewhere and found a lot out that I was clueless about before

I even looked at massage parlours up here and the prices for them are £100 an hour too, I saw on one £40 goes to the pimp and £60 to the woman, I agree this is exploitation but all of these places had advertisements for jobs and £60 per hour isnt that bad money surely, if your willing to do the job? if you want to look at the sites im on about i could send you a pm?

A worse job imo would be a slaughterhouse or someone who investigates the murders and cleans up the bodies of DC, both imo are way worse than having sex with a randomer, IF they were nice people, had washed and treated me with respect?

Maybe thats just me? Its not something I'd ever do as I wouldnt like explaining it to my DCs but maybe other women dont feel like that?

MiniTheMinx · 15/01/2013 20:17

We have two Frans Confused

In fact I would make a guess that if anything it encourages more women into prostitution.

katiemummy2012 · 15/01/2013 21:24

I'm not franz, I am just engaging in a debate as its a topic iv had some issues with recently, the thing I do think is harmful about this is the effect on children and families when the DH/DP uses their services, I dont have an issue with a single man hiring a willing escort, why would I if its two people in a consensual agreement?

I agree it probably has encouraged all those women who dont have issues and would never stand on the street in the cold for £20, but would be happy having sex at home for £130 or whatever :S

Perhaps isnt a good thing as I imagine you'd need your eyes wide open and head screwed on to do such work, that doesnt mean no women fit this bill though :S I'm willing to bet a lot of those AW women are making £1000s a week, it wouldnt be hard with those hourly rates :S

This is all new to me as before I found out about DH I was in the same mind as many here, that only desperate, drug addicted women did it and that all the men would be paying for a cold, emotionless fuck with someone who is nearly throwing up but when I found out about DH i also found out that wasnt the case (and it hit me like a ton of bricks and I am still getting used to it :()

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 15/01/2013 21:58

Mini, I think there's at least 3, if not 4, versions of Franz on this thread now Confused

katiemummy: Sabrina as far as I am aware from my rat of a H the woman he saw (numerous times, I might angrily add) was very enthusiastic (unlike me apparently ) thats why he went back to her, spending £1000

That's awful for you. Unfortunately you're not first and you won't be the last. Of course, you do know it's very unlikely that she really enthusiastic, don't you? She, like the vast majority of prostitutes, would have been acting. Your husband, and men that believe that escorts & prostitutes "actually quite fancy them" are a bit dim. They generally just want the cash and the experience over and done with asap.

So, what's the debate about? I can direct you to writings on the subject if you're genuinely interested - but as far as you personally are concerned, I would say that what concerned you is that you're husband felt entitled to sex. He felt so entitled to exciting sex that when his wife was a bit preoccupied with his children, he decided he had the right to pay another woman for sex.

This has (if I remember your earlier posts correctly, it's an awfully long thread) resulted in the end of your marriage. So just imagine a society that says - "Men - you're not 'entitled' to buy other women for sex." Imagine a society where buying sex was not normalised, where your dh's mate didn't introduce him to AW.

Swedish society has legislated to try and create just that society. It has prohibited the purchase of sex by law. They have consistently cited that 'gender equality cannot be achieved in society when people can be bought and sold for sex." It is a popular law - 80% of the Swedish population supports it, street prostitution has plummeted, prostitution hasn't been driven underground (contrary to what some sex-activist sites will say), and Sweden is a very unattractive country for sex traffickers/sex tourism. This approach has now been copied by Iceland and Norway, and other countries are considering it.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 15/01/2013 22:34

Frans. That Guardian article about Pentameter is the 'go-to' article for anyone wanting to deny any problem of sex trafficking in the UK. It is always linked to on these threads.

Operations like Pantameter fail because sex trafficking cases are notoriously difficult to identify and prove.

The Poppy Project argues that many women find it difficult to disclose issues such as rape and that the police's methodology, which involved officers entering brothels and asking women if they had been trafficked, was unlikely to glean accurate information. Source

A follow up study named Operation Acumen aimed to improve on the failed methodology of Operation Pentameter's.

Operation Acumen's key findings:

Researchers estimate there are 6000 brothels, which employ 30,000 sex workers.

Of those:

17,000 are immigrants
9600 are considered vulnerable
2600 are believed to have been trafficked to the country specifically to work as prostitutes
The report found that 1300 of the trafficking victims were from China, and most of the rest were from southeast Asia (primarily Thailand) and Eastern Europe.

Source - The Home Office

Also this article which, interestingly enough was also in the Guardian.

So, firstly, from this we can see that there are a large number of prostitutes (at least 30,000) not working independently through sites like AW.

Secondly, this level of sex trafficking is only possible if paying for sex is normalised and acceptable within society.

Charlizee · 16/01/2013 16:22

"Operations like Pantameter fail because sex trafficking cases are notoriously difficult to identify and prove."

Another theory would be that so-called "trafficked" victims are in fact willing sex workers who refuse to call themselves victims?

As for your key findings- notice the "key" words here: ""estimate", "are considerd", "are belived"*.

"Secondly, this level of sex trafficking is only possible if paying for sex is normalised and acceptable within society."

I disagree with that completely. Sex trafficking is already illegal and unacceptable even though prostitution is legal.

Charlizee · 16/01/2013 16:24

As for the talk on Germany a little earlier. Someone claimed Germany's trafficked figures rose by "70%" since the introduction of legalization?

You might find this an interesting read:

www.fileden.com/files/2009/12/2/2673147/Schreiben%20EWL%20formatiert.pdf

katiemummy2012 · 16/01/2013 16:44

I believe its already looked down up greatly to either be a punter or a prostitute, so its not normalized anyway yet still happens all the time

why do you think they all keep it a secret? because its already unnacceptable in society

so is taking drugs (to most), yet loads of people still do that

katiemummy2012 · 16/01/2013 16:53

Sabrina I do believe what you are quoting is wrong, there is such thing as voluntary trafficking, its odd you cant comprehend some women come to the country to work as prostitutes because they can make a lot of money?

Its already been proven making it illegal to do something doesnt stop people from doing it (drugs, underage drinking, underage sex?)

sex tourism does still exist in Sweden I read a post on a site from an escort that had 'toured' there and still seen punters, its incorrect to assume that because somethings illegal that it doesnt happen

80% agree with it, maybe they are people that arnt involved in prostitution and dont know anything about it?

katiemummy2012 · 16/01/2013 16:55

I also dont see that my H or other men have 'bought' anyone, he paid a large sum of money to spend an hours time with her (it pains me to say this), he didnt buy her and as far as im aware she still possesses her own body, its a bit hard to buy someones body off them isnt it? If shes still living at home where she shagged my DH she hasnt been 'sold' has she?

GunsAndRoses · 16/01/2013 17:36

I cannot believe that some people on this thread are defending men who pay for sex. Did no-one see the news last night? This is one of the reasons prostitution should not be normalised.

Oxford 'child sex ring committed depraved abuse'

Between them the defendants deny 51 counts including rape, trafficking and organising prostitution between 2004 and 2012
A group of nine men targeted vulnerable young girls in Oxford and subjected them to depraved sexual abuse, the Old Bailey has heard.

The men, eight from Oxford and one from Berkshire, are accused of being involved in a child sex-trafficking ring involving six girls.

Between them the defendants face 51 counts including rape and trafficking.

They deny the charges which relate to girls aged between 11 and 15 and cover a period from 2004 to 2012.

'Lavished attention'

Noel Lucas QC, prosecuting, told jurors the defendants groomed the girls, then controlled them, using them for their own sexual gratification and selling them to other men for sex.

He said the men deliberately targeted girls who had unsettled home lives which made it less likely anyone would exercise normal parental control over them or be looking out for them.

One girl was just 12 when she was forced into prostitution, the court heard.

Mr Lucas said: "She frequently caught Chlamydia. She was often covered in bruises and burns where the men had stubbed her with cigarettes."

The court heard the girl began to self-harm and described the lifestyle as a "living hell".

Mr Lucas said the girls became dependent on their abusers after becoming addicted to drugs "If she refused to go they would threaten her, saying that they would burn her house down and her brother would be burnt alive," Mr Lucas added.

Jurors were told sometimes the girls were targeted while they were drinking or playing truant.

They were then groomed in a variety of ways, such as being given gifts, the court heard.

Mr Lucas said: "The attention lavished on the girls at the outset was of course entirely insincere as it was merely a device, you may conclude once you hear the evidence, to exploit their vulnerability."

The defendants plied the girls with alcohol and introduced them to drugs, including cannabis, cocaine and sometimes heroin, the court heard.

The jury was told the girls became addicted to drugs, making them dependent on their abusers.

'Extreme depravity'

Mr Lucas said the men sometimes used extreme physical and sexual violence on the girls.

He said: "The depravity, and I use that word with care, of what was done to the complainants was extreme.

"The facts in this case will make you feel uncomfortable."

The court was told the girls were taken to empty private houses and guest houses where others would pay to have sex with them, often in groups.

The men came from as far afield as Bradford, Leeds, London and Slough.

The girls were also taken to other towns and cities, including London and Bournemouth.

Mr Lucas said: "The girls were usually given so many drugs that they were barely aware of what was going on. Indeed, they say it was the only way they could cope with what was going on.

"Between acts of abuse sometimes stretching over a number of days, the Oxford men ensured girls were guarded so that they could not escape."

The trial is expected to last until April. The defendants are all in custody.

The defendants are:

Kamar Jamil, 27, of Aldwych Road, Oxford
Akhtar Dogar, 32, of Tawney Street, Oxford; and his brother Anjum Dogar, 30, of Tawney Street, Oxford
Assad Hussain, 32, of Ashurst Way, Oxford
Mohammed Karrar, 38, of Kames Close, Oxford; and his brother Bassam Karrar, 33, of Hundred Acres Close, Oxford
Mohammed Hussain, 24, of Horspath Road, Oxford
Zeeshan Ahmed, 27, of Palmer Road, Oxford
Bilal Ahmed, 26, of Suffolk Road, Maidenhead

uk-england-oxfordshire-21027681

Who knows what lengths these so called men will go to next to feed their sick depravity. Anyone pro prostitution or anyone defending men who purchase sex is sick in the head!

GunsAndRoses · 16/01/2013 17:49

uk-england-oxfordshire-21027681

People pro prostitution and people determined to stand by the punters who buy sex should think about their ancestors. Who is to say that somewhere in your own family line a woman had no other option but to sell her body or do sexual favours in order to survive. Times were hideously tough in the olden days. Times are tough in this day and age. All any of us can do is thank god we haven't had to live that unpleasant way of life and pray that our daughters daughters daughters never find themselves in such a desperate predicament.

GunsAndRoses · 16/01/2013 17:53

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-19757460

Third time lucky with click link.

Charlizee · 16/01/2013 19:45

"there is such thing as voluntary trafficking"

There isn't. The legal definition of trafficking has nothing to do with crossing borders or travelling a long distance- it's about being forced/coerced.

I know what you mean though there are plenty of people who come into the UK and willingly get a job in the sex industry.

I once read an article that explained where the Poppy Project got its figures for trafficking from- they would phone up saunas in London and ask for the ethnicities of the ladies working there. They then simply deduced that anyone who wasn't British "was trafficked". Yeah great logic.