Good piece on sex work by Laurie Penny

[SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh]

Here. She puts it a bit more elegantly than I usually do...

the men pleaded not guilty because they believe that everyone will take the dim that it couldn't possibly be there fault. too many people make excuses for men to get away with stuff like this. isn't it about time they took responsibility for there actions.

@ katiemum "If shes still living at home where she shagged my DH she hasnt been 'sold' has she?" umm how about rephrasing that to your dh shagged her! am sorry to read your situation it must feel like hell but i find it amazing how quick you are to judge this woman who presumably you really know nothing about. how do you know that she wasn't abused in some way like the girls mentioned in the news article in her past when she was their age? don't be so quick to pass judgement on someone you know absolutely nothing about other than an advert she might have posted on adultwork. your dh may be vulnerable as you stated upthread but theres always 2 sides to every story. maybe she is a brazen hussy on the other hand maybe she is also someone who was once vulnerable. katie are you getting councelling? from your posts i think it is something you could benefit from. xx

oopsie, ^ dim view

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-19757460

That is terrible and shocking. But what they are doing is already illegal (trafficking is illegal and underage-sex is illegal). Passing a law criminalizing willing adults from engaging in paid for sex will unfortunately do nothing to prevent this sort of thing happening.

"too many people make excuses for men to get away with stuff like this."

Who's making excuses for them? I advocate legalized prostitution but I think these men should burn in hell. They are pedos who trafficked children against their will.

charlizee people like you are a big part of the problem. too many people do make excuses for men to get away with using girls and women as sex objects as you well know, being an advocate of 'legalised' prostitution and all. shame on the likes of you!

I'm an an advocate for legalised prostitution as long as it's between consenting adults.

Rest assured acts of paedophilia is and always will be illegal and unacceptable.

i repeat, charlizee people like you are a big part of the problem. too many people do make excuses for men to get away with using girls and women as sex objects as you well know, being an advocate of 'legalised' prostitution and all. shame on the likes of you!

yeah you already said that.

Hi Charlizee.

Operation Acumen looked at brothels in seven regions of the country. That information was then extrapolated out for all of England and Wales. They didn't just sit around a desk plucking figures out of the air, you know!

"Sex trafficking is already illegal and unacceptable even though prostitution is legal."

The thing about sex trafficking is that traffickers don't just do it because they fancy abusing a load of women (although I believe this is an additional perk for a lot them).

Sex traffickers do it because where there is a demand for it, there is a lot of money to be made. They traffic women into countries where they can make a profit easily - Profits can most easily made where there is a population of punters willing to pay for sex with women and not ask too many questions- punters who feel that buying sex is normalised and acceptable.

This is borne out by the fact that Sweden, having prohibited the purchase of sex, now has low trafficking and sex tourism rates, compared to countries like the Netherlands where it is legalised.

"there is such thing as voluntary trafficking"

There isn't. The legal definition of trafficking has nothing to do with crossing borders or travelling a long distance- it's about being forced/coerced.

Correct. There is no such thing as voluntary trafficking. The prostitutes you are thinking of, who travel to this country 'voluntarily' to be prostitutes, are included under the 17,000 figure in my last post.

I'm not sure Katiesmummy understands what trafficking is or what happens to women trafficked for sex. Did you read the article I linked to? The prostitutes that are trafficked have their passports removed, are locked in a room and violently assaulted and raped. Threats are made to family back home to make sure they behave and they don't earn any money. It's all taken by the traffickers.

Prostitution is gradually becoming more and more normalised in society and that's why your "d"h felt he was entitled to go and pay one for sex. Consider the effect of Trading Places, Pretty Woman and Belle de Jour/Secret Diary of a Call Girl - all very empowering aren't they? But don't be fooled into thinking they're all like Belle de Jour or the prostitute that your h visited.

Sex traffickers want prostitution to be both normalised and acceptable in society- they tend to travel to countries where there are punters ready and willing to part with their money with few questions asked because that's they way they make their money easily. When an activity is legal it is normalised and acceptable.

And, sex tourism is far more prevalent in the Netherlands and the Amsterdam red light district, where prostitution is is legal, than in Sweden, where the purchase of sex is illegal. No one could dispute that.

I would say at present prostitution isn't "normalised" and is already highly stigmatised even though it's legal. But that doesn't stop anyone it just means both WGs and clients are very discreet about it.

Come on who wants to visit Sweden anyway? It's cold, dark and there's barely any people there. When I studied at Newcastle college there was a trip to Amsterdam every year. Any guesses why the students wanted to go there and not Stockholm? You can't deny a country with liberal laws brings in the tourists (and their money).

"The prostitutes you are thinking of, who travel to this country 'voluntarily' to be prostitutes, are included under the 17,000 figure in my last post."

If you're doing what the Poppy Project does and automatically determine non-British women to be "trafficked" then that invalidates your statistics.

There are foreign women who work in the sex industry of their own free will. Just like there are British-born white women who are trafficked victims. Remember the legal definition of trafficking has nothing to do with crossing borders.

Amongst the many valid points that you are all making, I would just like to point out that upthread (slightly) Frans described an escort's work clothing as "naughty." Why is it naughty? I thought this was a job like any other, Frnas, so why is the clothing not considered perfectly acceptable? What is "naughty" or, by implication, illicit about it? For all your supposedly logical arguments, I think lapses like this show your true attitude to prostitution and female sexuality in general - that women who do these things are "wrong" or "lesser" and that is why they deserve to be paid for it - because they are doing something which is unpleasant, which they would rather not be doing, which perhaps, in your real opinion, they should not be doing - this shows your true opinion of women and sex - dirty and wrong. Your views are deeply mysogynistic.

Rosabud - what you have written is so true.

Charlizee, you seem to somehow be thinking I am quoting my own imaginary figures on this thread?

These are figures from Operation Acumen, which was an Investigation carried out by the Association of Chief Police Officers - nothing to do with the Poppy Project.

The figures have been accepted and published by the Home Office.

Here's the quote:
"Escorts tend to travel to their client wearing ordinary casual "civilian" clothes. If the client wants them to wear something naughty the escort will take this in a bag and then change into it when she arrives at the client's place. You would not know if you passed an escort on the street who was on her way to work."

Clients sometimes do request escorts to wear a costume or a uniform they like (maybe they want to act out a roleplay or something). It's understandable if the escort is dressed in her casual clothes while out in pubic. So where's the misogyny?

It's in the realms of "I'll be whoever you want me to be, honey" Charlizee. There's the misogyny.

Welcome to Mumsnet, btw. Or are you a namechanger?

YY Running,

Sterling work on here, Sabrina. Loving it.

Ha! right backatcha, running! Mwah mwah

We need a Mwah emoticon.

[fbear]

Oh, festive bear doesn't work anymore. Oh well, I suppose that's only right and proper after 12th night.

Maybe we have different definitions of misogyny?

The mysogyny is in the fact that he described her working clothes using the word "naughty" which implies something wrong, illicit, not right - see my comments above.