Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

891 replies

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter · 19/10/2012 10:05

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women Hmm

OP posts:
runningforthebusinheels · 02/11/2012 21:54

Yes, daddancer - every girl you meet in life is someone's daughter. The girl you have sex with, hopefully wants it too and is having mutually consensual sex, be it a one night stand or a relationship. Don't leer at the girl sunbathing topless on the beach - she just doesn't want tan lines. Don't go in the lap dancing club and leer at the women, or pay them to strip for you. The girl doing a sex scene on the bbc drama is (hopefully) doing it for the dramatic relevance of the story - but that's a whole difference debate!

There is a massive difference between looking at someone sexually and treating women as equals that you can love and have sexual relationships with and leering at women as sexual objects on the beach, in lap dancing clubs etc. Can you really not see the difference?

I hope my daughter goes through life having fulfilling relationship(s) with men - men who respect her as an equal. Not men who want to leer at her, abuse her, stick a tenner in her knickers and have her strip for him. You should hope for that for your daughter too.

FastLoris · 02/11/2012 22:03

Somerset -

"... as long as it's somewhere with clear boundaries and they're not at risk of abuse"

Yes, well... Obviously.

That's a pretty big hook to hang your approval on. Pretty much a given that this would be the proviso - but of course the (tiny? medium? huge?) chance that this may not be the case is clearly a big part of why so many of us have a problem with these places.

That wasn't my impression of the question - I thought we were being asked whether we'd be OK with it just taking the clubs and their rules on face value. So I gave my answer. As for how I'd feel about my daughter being coerced into a job like that or sexually harassed by her boss or whatever, that'd be a different question (although of course that can happen in other jobs too).

I'm not sure whether you're correct about how big a part of peoples' objection the risk of abuse is. It's come up a little on this thread but whenever things are pointed out like the apparent absence of trafficked women in the clubs, the use of CCTC cameras and testimony of lapdancers who don't have any such problems, it doesn't change anyone's mind.

By far the greatest part of this thread, it seems to me, has been about the issue of "objectification", and it's been clear that all the antis consider that aspect of the clubs unacceptable even when they do operate scrupulously within the rules. They don't think the clubs should be closed because what else they might lead to - they think they should be closed because they are wrong per se, even within the stated boundaries.

grimbletart · 02/11/2012 22:04

Well, I just about rescued the dinner Grin and see it has all kicked off again following my (what I think) was a pertinent question to would-be LDC defenders.

I see the thread has moved on, but anyway....

In my absence Doctrine has kindly pointed out what my response would be to GetAllTheThings i.e. I made no judgement whatsoever on any other parent?s parenting skills (only my own), on no other person?s daughters (only my own - NB ?not as intelligent? does not = stupid by the way); skint was not a reference to anyone else?s daughter, only my own. I was asked for a personal opinion. I gave it and was very precise about it being a personal opinion. That does not mean GetAllTheThings that you can then extrapolate it to an entire population because that makes it an exception fallacy.

Re cardboard cut outs.. maybe I was a little harsh, but I was trying to bring home, however ineptly, the fact that the women in these clubs are real people with real feelings. Sure, the punters are humans as you assert with a variety of motives for being there and I cannot know all their motives and what drives them, but I do believe that when they cross the threshold into these clubs they leave a little of their humanity behind.

I note that as the guilty party who personalised it by asking posters to imagine it was their daughter rather than an anonymous women there has been an outbreak of faux outrage by one or two (as in don't bring my daughter into it) and a general air of defensiveness pervading the thread.

It kind of gets into your head doesn't it when that no-name woman wiggling front of you while you possibly struggle to contain your sexual 'emotions' suddenly morphs into your daughter?

FastLoris · 02/11/2012 22:07

There is a massive difference between looking at someone sexually and treating women as equals that you can love and have sexual relationships with and leering at women as sexual objects on the beach, in lap dancing clubs etc. Can you really not see the difference?

Yes, "leering" is a judgment-laden pejorative term and "looking at sexually" isn't. Other than that they both involve pointing your eyes at someone and getting horny.

DadDancer · 02/11/2012 22:12

So kim147 what are all these boy bands about then? i remember my sisters bedroom plastered with Take That posters. Many semi naked, including the famous bare bum poster. Was it a figment of my imagination? There's just as much pressure for blokes to be seen as fit, hunky, big muscles etc. I'd go as far as saying that there is more pressure on blokes to look good than women these days. I myself actually take longer to get ready than my OH. I have even been labelled at work as a metro-sexual. I think girls are far more judgmental on looks then men are, and criticize other women far more than any man could.

You talk about F1 but my female colleagues are always lusting over Mark Webber, despite him being a very average driver with not having much personality. Personally i don't have a problem with this but i am sure if i started commenting on how i liked the grid girls i'd be crucified.

kim147 · 02/11/2012 22:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

runningforthebusinheels · 02/11/2012 22:25

Can you not see a difference between 'leering' and 'looking at someone sexually' FastLoris?

I can.

runningforthebusinheels · 02/11/2012 22:27

Leering is predatory, malicious, sly. Sexual desire is a normal human emotion - you can sexually desire someone without leering. My husband sexually desires me, but I have never felt leered at by him.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 02/11/2012 22:29

Daddancer - when you see women topless on the beach do you leer at them? What is your motivation for going to lap dancing clubs, as opposed to a normal bar?

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 02/11/2012 23:07

"There is more pressure on blokes than on women to look good these days."

Righty-ho.

Sleep tight everyone!

runningforthebusinheels · 02/11/2012 23:10

TheDoctrine Grin

DadDancer · 02/11/2012 23:16

There is a massive difference between looking at someone sexually and treating women as equals that you can love and have sexual relationships with and leering at women as sexual objects on the beach, in lap dancing clubs etc. Can you really not see the difference?

but please explain why I wouldn't treat a dancer as an equal? Just because money exchanges hands and there is nudity involved, how is it any different to any other live performance? So are you saying that you can't fancy another person unless you are in a loving relationship with them? Is window shopping really such a bad thing? What about flirting with the opposite sex?, it's rife in the work place. Is it not good for persons in long term relationships to have a bit of their own space now and again? Just as long as boundaries are established and are not crossed then why should it be a problem? My OH doesn't have a problem with porn and watching striptease as long as it's an occasional thing, and i don't spend too much money. I am happy for her to do the same and she has seen male strippers too.

DadDancer · 02/11/2012 23:21

kim147 no i agree why not have grid guys and isn't it about time we had a female F1 driver too?

runningforthebusinheels · 02/11/2012 23:27

You're not treating a dancer as an equal because you are paying her to take her clothes off for you. It's objectification and exploitation and effects all women in the attitudes men have towards them.

It's different from any other performance because you are treating her like a sexual object - paying her to take her clothes off for you for your sexual gratification.

No - I'm not saying you can't fancy a person if you're not in a relationship with them - but you certainly shouldn't be leering over them. And you probs shouldn't be flirting with the girls at work - unless it's very much reciprocated. There's a very good law against that.

Own space in relationships is fine - as long as own space doesn'e mean doing things that the other person would consider as tantamount to cheating/betrayal.

You and wife can set your own rules as far as what's ok in your relationship - but think of the women you are paying to strip for you. Think of how you are objectifying them, using them. Think of how you would feel if another man was doing that to your daughter - they're all someones daughter.

You should want a better world for your daughter than one where men think it's ok to leer at her on a beach, in the workplace, in a club.

runningforthebusinheels · 02/11/2012 23:29

Just to clarify re. flirting at work - I've known more than one man come a cropper at work for what they thought was harmless flirting, but what the woman involved thought was sexual harrassment.

DadDancer · 03/11/2012 01:14

You're not treating a dancer as an equal because you are paying her to take her clothes off for you.

but you could apply that to any situation where money exchanges hands. replace 'take her clothes off for you.' to another situation like serving you a drink for example. So you are saying that anyone who provides a service to another person are then regarded a lesser person? why should nudity be regarded as a special case?

It's objectification and exploitation and effects all women in the attitudes men have towards them.

If it's a consensual exchange between adults then it's not exploitation. I also don't agree with the theory that it effects all women. i can't see any proven link to back this up either.

It's different from any other performance because you are treating her like a sexual object - paying her to take her clothes off for you for your sexual gratification.

No they are a normal person taking their clothes off performing a dance that they have chosen. You are not propositioning the girl eg. asking her to do this, this and this for x amount of money. She is inviting you to watch her dance for x amount of money. If it turns a person on or not is down to the individual.

I don't do flirting at work but a lot of other people do. It was more an observation of what some people do as a release in long term relationships.

please see my previous posts above for my views regarding the 'it's always someones daughter' argument.

DadDancer · 03/11/2012 01:30

No Sabrina i don't leer at topless girls on the beach. As so many people in the med go topless , it becomes normalized and no big deal.

tittydancer · 03/11/2012 01:37

Hi all, my first post on the forums as I have personal interest in this subject. Grin
A little bit about myself...I am a dancer, I chose to do it, I certainly wasn't trafficked, forced etc to do this job. I come from a middle class family, I have a degree and I'm married. In addition to my dancing I also just started business (related to my degree) which I am hoping to build up and do solely within a year or two.

I think both sides of the arguments presented here are quite flawed. The truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle. Strip clubs are neither horrible places where young women get abused and objectified nor are they Disneyland like utopias where everyone is always perky and happy and making amazing money.

There are also all kinds of clubs and strip pubs and not all places should be tarred with the same brush. As I've been in business for a few years I have danced in high level clubs and in complete dives. I have worked for myself and for the agencies. For both men and women owners.

I do not favour banning the strip clubs as that will most certainly be a trigger for it to go illegal. It will not eradicate the stripping at all, in that you can be sure. There already are a number of "private parties" being held across the capital where touching is the norm. They are difficult to trace unless you are in the industry and I doubt that they would ever be closed down. If councils ban the clubs and pubs in which striptease and private dancing is performed legally, the whole thing will simply move underground. The WHOLE industry, rather than a few parties as the situation is now. It certainly is something to think about for the anti brigade who claim to have girls' best interest at heart. You don't as you don't respect the choice of others or their right to work in safe environment.
I do believe that your opinions were formed out of desire to help, but really it's not helping.

What we need is not a ban, but different regulations for the industry across the country...not one council or two, but all of them.
I would like to see dancers get some sort of employee status rather than be classed as self employed. The fees clubs charge are extortionate and it can make for the stressful atmosphere when you start your night at -£80 or whatever. Also, being self employed, most dancers simply choose not to pay income tax. Out of all the dancers I know, only a handful pay their taxes. When you start work, clubs certainly don't explain that you are responsible for your taxes and as a lot of the girls are foreign they never bother with it. Rather than pay extortionate fees to the club, put it towards taxes. Having employee status might help with that as well as being helpful in the case of wrongful dismissals etc... (they do happen...one day you work, the next day the boss decides he/she doesn't like you, you're jobless and there's nothing you can do about that).
Not all places are like that, of course. Some treat you very fair, some are just awful as they know they can get away with murder.
Whether the place is run by a man or a woman is completely irrelevant...there are wonderful men bosses and horrible lady bosses (and vice versa, of course).

Now for the brigade that thinks everything is kosher. Not strictly true.
Someone mentioned the money....it is true that we can end up with negative balance at the end of the night. It happens more often than you think in some places. Funnily enough, it's usually glamorous, high end places that this kind of situation is more likely to happen. Places like Stringfellows and Spearmint Rhino pack the clubs with girls...(all beautiful, of course), rack up the house fee and you're left with a cut throat atmosphere and a lot of stress. 100 girls fighting for customers. Sure, you'll have an extremely profitable say...two nights, but the other two nights you'll make a loss. And that goes for even the prettiest, sexiest girl in the place. Even though it balances out at the end of the week/month, it's extremely deflating and demoralizing when you just spent 6-8 hours gyrating naked and you end up paying for the privilege.
As for no touching, in some licensed places it does go on. It shouldn't, and while it's not encouraged by management, they certainly turn a blind eye to it. I, and most girls, don't have problem with a lap dance, and I certainly feel very comfrotable naked, but I don't want no man taking it upon themselves to touch me. Now, while it's easy to blame customers or management for this one, it's actually dancers who are the guilty ones here. They're the ones that normally encourage it first in hope of making more money. And if you offer it to a guy, well, he's gonna take it. And then he will try the same tactic with the next dancer that comes along.
Not cool. Doesn't go on in all the clubs, in fact, majority of clubs don't allow any touching, but it can be a bit of trial and error to find a good place to work which doesn't allow touching, is relaxed and treats girls with respect.

Overall, I do enjoy dancing...it keeps me fit and athletic, I LOVE doing pole dancing on stage, I don't mind doing private dancing as long as there's no touching, and I am not sorry I chose that path.
It enabled me to finish my university with no debt, to travel the world, live in a nice apartment, finance the start up of my business with no loans from the bank etc...
It is certainly a flexible job which does enable you to have a lot of choice in life.
It also gave me a bit of an insight into men and in a funny way, it made me more relaxed and understanding in my own marriage.
And even though, it can at times be demoralizing, I'd say overall it's more of a confidence builder as it does take guts and presence to get out on stage and perform naked.
So to sum it up, no ban, but better regulations.

I would be happy to answer any questions as well.

SomersetONeil · 03/11/2012 02:10

"I also don't agree with the theory that it effects all women. i can't see any proven link to back this up either."

I'm sorry, but this pisses me off so much. It's such an unbelievably arrogant thing to say. How would you even know, DadDancer? Confused You're a man. You're clearly not on the receiving end of the behaviour!

Did you bother to read that thread I linked to earlier? I'm guessing not. Here it is again. Woman after woman after woman giving examples of how she's been at the receiving end of unwanted, uninvited and unwelcome attention - leered at, felt up, groped, insulted, assaulted, abused and even worse. There is barely a woman on that 600+ post thread that has not had a bad experience in some way.

This is the culture that objectification feeds into.

Tittydancer - thanks for your post, it makes interesting reading. I've said it several times now (and so have others) that I have absolutely no beef with dancers themselves and your choices are yours to make. My issue is - and always has been - with the bigger-picture, wider ramifications for women as a whole.

Your paragraph for the thinks-it's-all-kosher-brigade makes for thoroughly depressing reading.

As with every thread like this that I dip my toe into, my feminist beliefs just become even more firmly entrenched. There is so much on the thread that I disagree with, but short of dropping out of my own life and putting everything on hold, there simply isn't time to respond to even half the assertions put forward by some on here.

tittydancer · 03/11/2012 02:26

Somerset I agree with the picture being somewhat bleak when it comes to objectification, but I honestly think strip clubs are the least to blame here. They are part of the problem, but a small one. With the all imaginable kinds of porn freely and widely available, all kinds of kinks catered to, etc...strip clubs are paragon of innocence and virtue in comparison.
Men are very visual creatures and their sexuality is tightly woven with the visual stimulation. Always has been, always will be. Banning of this and that won't solve anything. In fact, I don't think there's a solution.
Men are not suddenly going to stop looking at women, stop looking at porn, etc...
You ban it, they'll take it underground.
Personally, I take the view, if you can't beat them...join them. Or at least use them to your advantage.
I fully exploit my feminine charms to my advantage and I'm cool with that.
And on a personal level, I'd rather my husband pays a visit to a strip club than indulges in watching...say...extremely violent porn.

SomersetONeil · 03/11/2012 04:35

You really think it's a choice between a visit to a strip club ... or ... extreme violent porn...? Wow. I feel a bit sad for you. I realise that sounds ludicrously patronising, but really. What kind of men do you have in your life to think like that? :(

Difficult as it may be to believe, I don't want to ban anything. I'd just prefer to live in a society that actively chooses not to partake and buy into lap dancing clubs, extreme porn, etc, etc. I guess I'm lucky that my immediate social circle does eschew that. Don't worry - I'm not living in some idealised, utopian, deluded bubble - but the men in my life, family and friends, are all nice, kind, decent people.

Again, it comes down to the bigger picture - as long as we live in a patriarchal society, some less enlightened men will need LDCs, SEVs, porn and the like. The more we move away from that, well, it'd be nice to think that the demand will eventually start to naturally dwindle.

I mean - even larry acknowledges that attitudes have changed and things have moved on. This is all part and parcel of the feminist movement and progressive, more tolerant, enlightened thought in general. Not just in regards to gender, but to race, to people with disabilities, sexuality, etc, etc. The way society thinks about all sorts of things has improved immeasurably. Things that were once unquestioningly accepted are now inconceivable as society self-regulates.

There's still a long way to go, but we've come a long way, too. Again - I don't want to ban anything - I just live in hope that we continue to progress to such a point that there's no need to ban; but that people actively eschew these things of their own free will. :)

TheDoctrineOfSnatch · 03/11/2012 07:44

Thank for joining the thread, TD.

DadDancer, do you think that women are sexually objectified in our culture (porn, grid girls, adverts with a disembodied pair of breasts or legs etc) but that none of this affects women in general? Or is it only lap dancing that you feel isn't part of a general effect ?

Sausageeggbacon · 03/11/2012 08:00

Somerset that was a really sad remark to make to TD, she uses an example which may have no relevance to her her life but is just an example and you take the opportunity to bash her. She has obviously come on here to try and show exactly what it is like and you just want to bash her? An intelligent articulate woman who works in the industry and thus knows more than any of us. Or perhaps that would be a reason to try and drive her off.

Titty, can you explain the power dynamics between customers and dancers, the statement is always that either the dancer is exploiting the customer wallet or the customer is exploiting the dancer. I see it as a bit of both although do like the nickname I have heard for customers as walking ATMs. But that is objectifying the customer (or just their wallets?).

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 03/11/2012 09:25

Daddancer - that's good to hear. I have gone topless on mediterranean beaches myself and I agree it's normalised there. So - it's not a bit like seedy lap dancing bars then.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 03/11/2012 09:43

'If you can't beat them, join them' is a view I find very difficult to swallow tbh - but it is the view I have always assumed some of the women who work in LDCs, porn, page 3 etc take.

I'm with Somerset here - I don't want me or my daughter to have to pander to the misogyny of the sex industry.