to feel that most females have been the victim of some kind of sexual abuse?

(639 Posts)
SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 14:46:31

AIBU?

I was very nearly raped by a taxi driver. Also my cries of NO have been ignored on a couple of occasions.

gallifrey Fri 05-Oct-12 15:00:17

When I was 16 I went out with an 18 yr old lad from my area, he was a bit of a "hard nut" and built like a brick shit house. Anyway we were in his bedroom one evening and he forced himself on me. I said no but he basically ignored me despite my protests and called me a prick teaser. I have never ever told anyone this sad

lisad123 Fri 05-Oct-12 15:01:02

Sadly a very common story sad please report if you feel strong enough x

charlienash25 Fri 05-Oct-12 15:07:20

Unfortunately happened to me when i was 14 - by someone i thought was a friend. Told him no, he carried on, i cried, he finished, i went home and reported to police 2 weeks later after not speaking to anyone for this period of time.

Went to do a statement to which the lady in the station told me directly 'Im not surprised with the way you are dressed' (it was summer, i was wearing jeans and boob tube top - but apparently this was too slutty)

Ended up moving house, putting it behind me and getting on with my life. Just thankful it wasnt a stranger and I didnt get hurt really....

sigh

NiniLegsInTheAir Fri 05-Oct-12 15:12:58

YANBU.

I was sexually abused as a child by a slightly older cousin every week or so over a few months. Never told anyone in the family.

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 15:16:06

YANBU. The female who has not had her sexual boundaries crossed in some way doesn't exist IMO.

ClippedPhoenix Fri 05-Oct-12 15:17:45

YANBU.

Countless times OP.

Had advances made when babysitting for neighbour by her letcherous dad.

Had advances made when working in Saturday jobs by the owners (two separate occasions/jobs)

Lot of other kind of minor incident, major ones also, as in;

Raped

Stalked

owlelf Fri 05-Oct-12 15:17:45

I was kissed and groped in the crotch and chest by a member several times by a member of my extended family. I was 14, he was 17. It sounds utterly ridiculous but I honestly didn't really understand what was going on, I knew it was wrong, but I somehow thought I had done something wrong too- I felt ashamed so I said nothing.

I've never been sure if it was abuse or misplaced curiosity, but I hate him for it.

NolaFfing Fri 05-Oct-12 15:20:48

I was "felt up" my by MIL's father.

I wont go into details in my normal name, but I agree with you. sad
Not good is it. I guess the natural question to ask then, is why?

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 15:22:54

I would be really interested to hear from someone who feels they've never had an unwanted sexual experience of any kind in their life.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 15:23:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Certainly. Luckily, I have never been raped. I have been sexually assaulted on numerous occasions. Strangers, once a group of strangers, who groped me in the street. I was a child (about 12) at the time. Then, the usual idiots in bars, idiots who think you fancy them, idiots who don't know you don't want to sleep with them. It's fucking depressing and enraging when you think about it. It makes me despair for DD.

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 15:23:35

Can I just ask, Beyond, and of course you don't need to answer, but why don't you want to go into details in your normal name?

x-posted. Never saw the baby picture.

I don't feel that I have ever had any unwanted sexual attention.
So for me personally yabu but for the majority I suspect yanbu

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 15:30:06

Very glad to hear it jazz.

VeritableSmorgasbord Fri 05-Oct-12 15:31:14

I have escaped lightly, just a few minor gropings hmm one by a hospital consultant (wish I had reported that one but I was ill and not really truly sure what had gone on).

I can confidently say that if not all then most women have had something done to them against their will, and the number of women I know personally who've been subjected to violence and child rape is quite staggering.

I really believe there is a problem with making ordinary decent men aware of the extent of it. Obviously the perpetrators either know they've done it and think it's their right, or know they've done it and know it's wrong. I've tried to make a couple of non-offending men aware that nearly every woman they know will have been abused in one way or another and they have quite simply refused to believe me.

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 15:31:17

That's great Jazz, I'm really heartened to hear it. It sometimes feels like there is no one that hasn't experienced it.

MonaLotte Fri 05-Oct-12 15:31:43

Thanks for that Sole. I haven't seen that image but now have an image of what you described in my head. You are as bad as ITN. Sorry of I sound harsh or clutching at pearls.
I came on here to share that I've had an older adult in a drama group expose himself to me in a dressing room. I was 15 I think he was 30 or so. I've also had a gay youth group worker tell me it's a shame I wasn't gay as I was her type when we were alone. I found it really disturbing.

secretlyahippy Fri 05-Oct-12 15:32:08

YANBU - as a child my uncle always tried to put his hand up my skirt. Another uncle turned his head and shoved his tongue in my mouth as I innocently kissed him goodbye when he was ill. Restraunt boss when I was 14 always 'accidently' rubbing himself up against me. Was camping on a beach abroad with friends when 20 years old and at a beach party the 'heartthrob' hmm surfer dude pinned me down and ignored me trying to push him off and say no repeatedly. I was very nearly raped but for some extreme inner strength and magic aim managed to headbut him very very hard in the face which stopped him enough for me to run away.

weegiemum Fri 05-Oct-12 15:32:35

Never.
I've never been raped, assaulted, groped, flawed at, touched when I didn't want to be.

I realise this makes me very lucky.

OneHandFlapping Fri 05-Oct-12 15:32:40

I wasn't going to post on this thread, because I'm afraid of sounding smug - whereas I actually think I've just been lucky. I had no idea that sexual assault was so prevalent.

But Cailin asked, so I'm going to say I've never been raped, or nearly raped, or seriously sexually assaulted.

I once had may crotch groped at a student party, but it was passing, and I didn't feel violated particularly. I can't remember any other unwanted physical contact at all.

I hope that this reamins the case.

spoonsspoonsspoons Fri 05-Oct-12 15:33:11

I've never experienced any sort of sexual abuse or had any unwanted sexual encounters. Unwanted advances maybe, but nothing that was pursued when feelings were made clear

I've seen a flasher, and whilst i understand the motivation behind that is sexual all i saw was a partially naked old man.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 15:35:22

Sorry Mona just it was national news. I should have complained.

WorraLiberty Fri 05-Oct-12 15:36:42

I've never experienced sexual abuse either.

I was flashed at when I was about 19. It didn't bother me or my mate - we just reported the filthy git's number plate to the police and went on with our evening.

Thankfuly I've never experienced it but I do think its fairly common. A couple of friends have had persistent unwanted attention which probably wouldn't be enough to be considered harassment but certainly made them uncomfortable and changed how they felt about being in certain situations.

squoosh Fri 05-Oct-12 15:36:56

I have never been the victim of sexual abuse. I would question that 'most females' have been. A lot have, too many have, but most?

Sunnywithachanceofshowers Fri 05-Oct-12 15:37:42

YANBU

I'm glad to hear that some women haven't been though smile

MonaLotte Fri 05-Oct-12 15:37:42

That's ok it's just orrible to even imagine I would certainly have complained if I had seen it. I agree there is no need to show it on the news.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 15:39:40

Sorry just just came to me again and it was years ago! I felt my innocence was abused by them showing it sad

eurochick Fri 05-Oct-12 15:40:15

I've been flashed at a couple of times.

I have been groped on the street by a stranger (v. frightening - he grabbed me from behind between the legs on a dark morning while I was waiting at a bus stop).

I've had sechs with someone I went out with before I went ready because he pushed me into to (I went out with him for a while afterwards to "legitimise" it in my head).

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 15:40:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spoonsspoonsspoons Fri 05-Oct-12 15:41:03

Obviously i can only assume my friends are telling the truth but my experience is not unusual amongst my close friends.

I think it depends what people think of as sexual assault. A couple of people on here might have in someone else's eyes but not their own. Flashers, groping without prior consent, someone trying their luck without clear signs that it is OK... they could all be considered sexual assault. There was a study where the researchers asked a lot of questions about sex and rape to married women. 1% of the women said they had been raped by their husbands, the researchers applied legal and objective standards to what they said about sex and found that 12% could be said to have been raped. This is one of the reasons we have to work on rape myths with men and women.

TrustNobody Fri 05-Oct-12 15:43:31

YANBU

Brother was the first. Sickening abuse that stopped short of full sex.
Stepfather that wanted 'proper kisses'
Bosses that felt me up when I was on YTS scheme
Ex-h who didn't understand no meant no

I'll never let another man back in my life. Ever.

sad sad sad

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 15:44:58

I would count flashing and momentary groping as unwanted sexual experience. Not to say that these things are necessarily traumatic, but what I wonder is, if there were so insignificant, why do you still remember them?

VeritableSmorgasbord Fri 05-Oct-12 15:45:20

I'm counting unwanted groping as sexual abuse. Because it is.
Being coerced into sex as a teenager? Ditto.

MerylStrop Fri 05-Oct-12 15:45:31

YANBU

I've been (relatively) lucky.

But I know countless friends who were co-erced into sex with older men when they were underage, or who have kept silent about rape or other abuse.

It is a very sad situation.

We need to get to a point where women do not brush off "minor gropings" as almost acceptable (as I am now ashamed to admit I did several times in my younger days)

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 15:46:47

Trust that was hard to read. I really feel for you, that is so much to go through.

If you ever want to talk about any of it, you can here on MN.

HolyAutumnGoldBatman Fri 05-Oct-12 15:47:42

'YANBU. The female who has not had her sexual boundaries crossed in some way doesn't exist IMO'

If this is true, what does it say about men? Whenever we have this type of thread it fills up really quickly with loads and loads of poster having been abused or assaulted in some way. Are we all talking about the same men, or are almost all men abusers?!

Tressy Fri 05-Oct-12 15:47:42

A male boss used to slap our backsides on our way to the photo copier and fondle our necks when talking to us about work. It was really creepy, but being in our first job and it being the 70's nobody thought anything of it. Horrible to think about it now.

Asleep in a shared house I was woken by who I thought was my boyfriend caressing me intimiately, but no it was a virtual stranger from the room upstairs, this sort of thing happened to me a few times.

WorraLiberty Fri 05-Oct-12 15:47:53

but what I wonder is, if there were so insignificant, why do you still remember them?

I can still remember lines I was given to learn in school assembly when I was 7yrs old...and other totally random things like the name of my Aunt's gerbil.

I don't see an old guy waving his todger from a car window as a sexual experience at all.

WorraLiberty Fri 05-Oct-12 15:48:48

Sorry, I meant I don't see it as a sexual experience for me personally

I'm not commenting on anyone else's experience.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 15:49:33

Trust, have you ever felt the urge to talk to a professional therapist.

Nothing you did encouraged this. It WAS NOT YOUR FAULT.

None of it.

OneHandFlapping Fri 05-Oct-12 15:49:53

Well I still remember the groping because at the same time he made some remark about my legs being too fat for the short skirt I was wearing. Of course I should have told him where to go, but that socialisation thing about being placatory to men kicked in, and I was schtum.

GoatsHaveStrangeEyes Fri 05-Oct-12 15:50:19

YANBU.

when I was 13 I had an older boyfriend who pinned me down with his knees on my arms and then wanked and ejaculated in my face. I still had my school uniform on. Never told anybody either.

picmaestress Fri 05-Oct-12 15:51:43

I don't know if it's 'most', but from my own and my friend's experience it's possibly over half. There is definitely a problem that MrsTerry referred to, which is most of us just don't think that much of it. I do think times have changed dramatically, and that it's more acceptable to have a voice.

Poor you, TrustNobody. I'm sorry you've been through all of that. sad

spoonsspoonsspoons Fri 05-Oct-12 15:52:11

I remember lots of one off events, just because it's a memory doesn't mean it has any significance. But in my mind nakedness does not equal sexual. My biggest quandry was whether to report it as I had a train to catch. If someone else wants to consider an episode where they are flashed as sexual assault that's fine, I don't feel this episode was anything of the sort.

I'm not sure that insisting others have experienced sexual assault when they don't agree helps the cause.

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 15:52:24

Sorry Worra, I put it the wrong way, what I meant was your sexual boundaries were crossed without your permission. It didn't bother you particularly but I'm sure you didn't want it to happen. I'm not saying it has to mean anything, because it was just something that happened, but what I'm saying is that when you opened a thread about sexual abuse, it came to mind, which means it does have some significance in the sense that you categorise it in that way.

Holy - I don't think all men are abusers, not even close. I do think abusive men abuse many many women and that even among "normal" men there is a certain sense of entitlement when it comes to sexual matters that can mean they do things that they don't necessarily consider abusive but that affect the woman greatly. My ex raped me, but reckoned he did nothing wrong. He was a perfectly normal guy who was 100% nice to me otherwise.

sweetkitty Fri 05-Oct-12 15:52:33

YANBU sadly

owlelf Fri 05-Oct-12 15:52:41

holy that is an interesting and really tricky question. Personally, it happened to me a number of times, but by the same person.

If it were all men I think it would have happened more often. I've said "no" a few times and other than that one person, everyone has respected my decision without question.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 15:52:46

I still recall the drunk man wanking in broad daylight up the side of StMartins church in B'ham on a Sat afternoon at around 2 or 3 pm!.

I was going past on the bus and he cum all over the wall.

We renember because flashing etc is so unusual maybe. It isnot something we see everyday.

WorraLiberty Fri 05-Oct-12 15:56:08

Sorry Worra, I put it the wrong way, what I meant was your sexual boundaries were crossed without your permission. It didn't bother you particularly but I'm sure you didn't want it to happen. I'm not saying it has to mean anything, because it was just something that happened, but what I'm saying is that when you opened a thread about sexual abuse, it came to mind, which means it does have some significance in the sense that you categorise it in that way

My sexual boundaries were not crossed because I don't see nakedness as anything to do with sex necessarily.

It came to mind because the poster directly before me mentioned being flashed at.

People see things differently I guess, but I most certainly don't see it as sexual abuse personally.

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 15:58:48

Fair enough Worra. I would see flashing as being quite intrusive and disturbing, but that's just my own view.

TrustNobody Fri 05-Oct-12 16:00:01

I've had therapy.

I still will never trust a man again. I tried to have a relationship after my marriage ended. He gave me herpes. That pretty much ended my desire to ever date or try to be 'normal'. I'm a serial victim.

TimothyTumblespring Fri 05-Oct-12 16:00:02

I'm not sure if it actually counts as sexual abuse. I was certainly "taken advantage of" as a teenager. I was 17 or 18 and I was a lot less streetwise than I thought I was. I thought that hanging around with lads a lot older than me made me look "cool."
In hindsight they were clearly only after one thing. I look back on it now and feel a bit ashamed and grubby. I don't think I was assaulted, just very naive. sad

PosieParker Fri 05-Oct-12 16:00:50

Flashing is a sexual crime, whether you think it is or not.

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 16:02:01

Why do you feel ashamed Timothy?

WorraLiberty Fri 05-Oct-12 16:04:17

I didn't say it wasn't Posie, although I have no idea if it is or not.

BreconBeBuggered Fri 05-Oct-12 16:04:26

Interesting question of boundaries. I was flashed at once when I was in a telephone box; he then proceeded to have a wank right outside the door so that I couldn't get out. I spoke of it as an amusing anecdote afterwards, but it was quite intimidating at the time. It didn't compare with the times I was actually assaulted, though there was the fear of what might happen next.

ClippedPhoenix Fri 05-Oct-12 16:04:26

I also think flashing as a sexual crime to be honest.

How strange. I logged in to start this thread myself and found yours. I'm currently battling my youngest daughter's fathere in court. She was conceived through rape. I stupidly never reported it and then in my hormonal state even let him put his name on her birth certificate. I even let him see her up until she was 4 months old when he tried to abduct her. For some strange reason he was only charged with breach of the peace but never turned up at court. My dd is now almost 4 and he has come out of the woodwork saying he wants to see her. He is a failed asylum seeker and I believe he only wants to see her as he thinks it will help his immigration case. He made very strange sexual comments about dd and I even caught him sniffing my older girls underwear. He claimed he was sniffing to check if it was dirty so he could put it in the wash.
Unfortunately my experiences with this man weren't the first time I've been sexually assaulted but it's the one time that is still having an impact on my life.

SarryB Fri 05-Oct-12 16:07:20

I have too.

BF when I was about 15 very nearly forced himself on me in a carpark. I kicked him in the nuts and ran off.
BF when I was about 23 nearly forced himself on me on several occasions, and would make me do things I was quite uncomfortable with.

I cannot imagine what it must be like to be raped - just being close to that scared the life out of me.

marshmallowpies Fri 05-Oct-12 16:07:23

I hope it has not happened to 'most' women, and I've certainly, thankfully, never had anything really bad happen to me, but when I was being bullied at school, in 2 cases the way boys behaved towards me would be classed as sexual harassment if it happened between two adults (mainly trying to grab me or making inappropriate crude comments to me - and it happened on the school bus so I couldn't even get away from the situation).

It was very upsetting at the time (I was in the first year of senior school, so only 11/12) - the worst thing I remember was having to sit next to him when there were no other spare seats on the bus. I asked a friend to swap with me, which she did, but he then started hitting her and wouldn't stop unless I swapped back and went to sit next to him again. Hurting my friend to get at me - what a hideous, hateful thing to do. It's that memory that haunts me more than the sexual bullying.

As an adult, I've not experienced it very often, but was once groped in a bar by a man who was trying to chat me up. I was abroad on my own, so realised I was in a fairly vulnerable situation, but was able to make my excuses politely but firmly and leave.

I had to go and sit in a Starbucks and drink a cup of tea after as I was shaking and quite upset, but as an adult responsible for my own life & my choices, told myself chalk it down to experience, be grateful it wasn't worse and get on and enjoy the holiday. I was in New York by myself so I really didn't want to spend the rest of my time there feeling scared - but it did make me wise up to the fact that people who appear to be friendly & chatting to a tourist may actually be looking for something else. I hadn't realised the bar I was in was a 'notorious pick up joint' - as i later read in my Rough Guide.

MadBusLady Fri 05-Oct-12 16:07:32

Another here who has never had any unwanted sexual experience - not flashing, groping, nor worse. I'm also fairly sure I can vouch for two (at least) close female friends who haven't either, but I can think of at least one person in my wider circle who has.

SarryB Fri 05-Oct-12 16:09:02

I was also flashed at when I was about 5, my older sisters were with me aged 6 and 7.

TimothyTumblespring Fri 05-Oct-12 16:09:42

Cailin - I think I feel ashamed because looking back I didn't want to do the things I did. I don't recall often actually saying no or physically trying to stop any of their advances but I remember not enjoying it, wishing I wasn't doing it and feeling dirty afterwards.

BegoniaBampot Fri 05-Oct-12 16:13:00

I've been assaulted probably on more occasions than I can count, luckily more minor and didn't really affect me that much other than to think I had been really lucky a few times as it could have gotten very much uglier. Always thought ever female had been at the least assaulted or inappropriately touched, threatened, whatever at least once.

spoonsspoonsspoons Fri 05-Oct-12 16:15:06

Interestingly amongst my male friends all have been physically assaulted to varying degrees.

LadyFlumpalot Fri 05-Oct-12 16:16:26

A male (ex) friend texted me a picture of his cock last week...

Apparently I'm up for it because I am an occasional photographers model.

I got pinned down by another ex friend 10 years ago on a night out, not raped, but almost. He stopped when I started crying. He said I was a prick tease because I had accepted a drink from him and gone outside for fresh air. I actually wanted fresh air!

BegoniaBampot Fri 05-Oct-12 16:16:28

Just read some more posts, really surprised that some women have never been assaulted. No one grab your breast, slapped your arse when they walked by - at the least. saying thatvsome of the worst assaults were when I went backpacking in countries not known for their good behaviour towards women and they were the more serious and scary ones. you just accepted it.

NoillyPrat Fri 05-Oct-12 16:16:48

YANBU sad

I was abused by a family member from the age of 8 until I was 15.

Nottigermum Fri 05-Oct-12 16:17:02

YANBU. I was abused by member of extended family.

Once at university I was on my own in a laundrette and a bloke came in, took his clothes off (I really mean, all his clothes) and put them in the washing mashine. When I actually noticed what he was doing I ran away and called the police, and he had left all his clothes in the washing machine but obviously had other clothes in a bag and he ran away! A bit funny, a bit traumatic... I was also flashed by a bloke in a car with his bits out in full view, that was much more worrying as it was around the corner from a secondary school - called 999 right away. He did get arrested and went to court.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 16:17:03

Spoons by other males, females or amixture of both? As adults?

trafficwarden Fri 05-Oct-12 16:17:39

I wrote a post and decided not to post it in case, as someone else said, it came across as smug. Anyway, I am another woman who has never experienced sexual or any other kind of abuse. Nobody close to me has ever discussed it with me but that says nothing I realise, just that it's not a subject many women would freely admit. Maybe I'm lucky, if so I am very grateful.

soverylucky Fri 05-Oct-12 16:19:35

Some of the stuff on this thread is horrific. When I was 14 I was walking down the street in my school uniform and a man grabbed my breast. That was all he did but I ran all the way home and cried and cried and never ever told anyone. I also had an experience with an older family member that was unpleasant. I know my sister has been groped at by her ex boss when she was a teen, my mum and her sister shared a story with me once and I know my sil had someone do something to her she didn't want to happen. I hate to say it but I think you are correct op.

Deux Fri 05-Oct-12 16:19:50

I haven't, ever. But reading this thread I do wonder if it's because I had a lovely boyfriend from the ages of 15 to 23.

And we were joined at the hip so perhaps that, in its way, kept me safe. He would have thumped anyone who came near me.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 16:20:36

You are bloody lucky and I am very glad for you traffic smile

MeFour Fri 05-Oct-12 16:21:43

I would put myself in the lucky category
Except actually it's not that I'm lucky is it. I'm how it should be.
I just wish it was the same for others

spoonsspoonsspoons Fri 05-Oct-12 16:22:03

Teenagers and young adults, males always involved but not exclusively.

I thought about it because what i know from female friends about not being assaulted etc. came up in the context of being happy as a woman, not feeling restricted because of our sex.

MadBusLady Fri 05-Oct-12 16:23:00

I hesitated for the same reason, trafficwarden.

But I do think it's important to keep in mind that while these experiences may be a lot more common than society at large would think, they are nonetheless NOT our inevitable fate. Some of us, somehow, have not had these experiences. That alone, I think, would make me angry and in a fighting mood if I was one of those who had. I wish all strength to anyone considering reporting/speaking up.

WorraLiberty Fri 05-Oct-12 16:23:33

Deux I'm quite sure you would have gone out without him during your 8 years together...even if it was just to the shop for a bar of chocolate.

SinisterBuggyMonth Fri 05-Oct-12 16:23:58

I had a creepy uncle who used to be a bit overly kissy with me and my nan (age wasnt an issue), my friends brother who called me his little friend while stroking me (not overly sexual, just creepy) a male colleage who grabbed my hand and put his cock against it ( I was working in catering too, yuk!) A council handyman fixing my radiator spotted my 32aa bra on the floor and asked if I was "filling it yet?" I was 11.

A friend between the ages of 8 to 11 insisted that when I stayed over we play a sex game were we get naked pretend to have sex and kiss with tonges. It would last for ages, I was forced to come up with new exciting positions and made to feel prudish if I tried to get out of it. I dint know how common this is, wheather lots of people do this and think nothing of it, but I hated it because it was so relentless, and looking back I think it was a form of bullying. My friend was a girl, and while it wasnt rape or abuse, it was definately unwanted sexual attention.

Am I the only one in here whose had it from a female?

ThatBintAgain Fri 05-Oct-12 16:24:20

YANBU.

I was flashed at as a teenager, assaulted a few times whilst travelling alone in India and raped by an acquaintance in my mid 20's.

I'm amazed (yet very pleased!) that there are women that haven't!

I was abused as a child. When I was nineteen a friends brother pinned me down and tried to assault me until I threatened to scream. ExP raped me. My grandfather stroked my arse, supposedly he did this with all the women of the family and he was just being affectionate hmm. Male work colleague pulled my skirt up, showing my underwear to a shop floor full of staff.
IMO I don't think you are U

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 16:25:56

Timothy you have nothing to be ashamed of. Those bastards are the ones who should be ashamed of themselves. They did things to a young girl when she clearly wasn't enjoying it. Arseholes.

LadyFlumpalot Fri 05-Oct-12 16:27:33

Sinister you have just reminded me of a time at brownie camp when one of the older girls said she had something weird down below, so she stripped off and got one of the other girls to look. The pair of them then got some of the younger girls to take their knickers off and be examined as well. I pretended to be asleep, as was deeply embarrassed by it all.

Deux Fri 05-Oct-12 16:27:53

Yes of course i went to the shops! Just never happened. Socially we were usually together or in large groups.

I don't know anyone who has experienced sexual boundaries being breached but realise that it is maybe not talked about.

I don't want to define what happens to other people. However, if we want to protect people and prevent assaults we have to be vigilant to what is unacceptable. Flashing for example. I'm really glad for the people who felt unaffected by it. I have seen a lot of rapists' offending history. Very, very frequently flashing is there. They may try it to see how they feel, how it is prosecuted or not, then they may escalate. If we took flashing more seriously, as the Police are doing now, would less people escalate?

On the subject of whether most men are therefore abusers. I know how prolific the men who sexually offend are. I think that most women could be sexually assaulted and the number of male offenders be quite low. They are some of the most prolific offenders.

CailinDana Fri 05-Oct-12 16:29:18

I definitely appreciate the women who are coming on to say they have never experienced it. I find it really reassuring. I am pregnant with a little girl and I am so afraid for her already. The fact that she at least has to chance to go through life never having to experience the shitness of abuse/rape etc, is heartening for me.

SnotandBothered Fri 05-Oct-12 16:29:27

Lots of little incidents - being pushed up against a wall and having someone stick their tongue in my mouth when I neither wanted nor knew what to do with it (about 13)

Being intimidated by two older boys (family friends) into pulling my knickers down whilst my mum chatted to their mum downstairs (about 9)

And the one that really sticks in my mind. On my first ever 'with my friends' holiday (16) to get to our apartment, we had to walk across a bit of a building site. One evening i had to walk past a snarling, spitting dog that was pulling at his lead and seemed to be able to 'reach me' as his rope was so long. I tried a few times but was really scared of getting attacked. An older man (40s) offered to walk me past the dog to the door which was only a few metres away. I turned round to thank him at the door and he'd whipped his penis out and tried to pull my head down to him. I kicked him and ran in.

Saw him a few days later in a supermarket. He looked me straight in the eye and I left. He didn't seem remotely embarrassed.

To be honest, I have never told anyone about this or let it play on my mind because there is a part of me that thinks "stupid 16 year old girl on holiday - what did you expect?" I know that's wrong but it just shows how deeply we are conditioned to take responsibility

Nothing like the trauma that some of you have suffered and I am truly sad for you.

So OP no, YANBU - I think the vast majority of women will have been subjected to some form of abuse or a varying scale at some point.

angry

QueenStromba Fri 05-Oct-12 16:31:23

When my sister and I were about 6 a man was masturbating while looking at us at the beach. When I was 15 a dirty old man on the bus put his hand up my school skirt. When I was 16 I lost my virginity to an older man who took advantage of the fact that I was drunk. I've had sex with a couple of men because I had a feeling that if I didn't then things would turn nasty.

WorraLiberty Fri 05-Oct-12 16:31:45

MrsT I agree about the flashing which is why I reported to the Police.

However, I didn't feel sexually abused or anything by it.

I just didn't want him to be able to do it to someone else who might actually have felt scared IYSWIM.

Good for you, reporting, Worrra.

shewhowines Fri 05-Oct-12 16:34:43

I just hope there are more people out there who haven't had incidences, but haven't bothered opening the thread or posting. It's very worrying.

A couple of minor incidences (including one groping on a train) for me, but generally a lot of respect from men thankfully.

Is it to do with your own confidence in yourself, when they are people you know, do you think?

ThatBintAgain Fri 05-Oct-12 16:35:49

I told my parents about the flashing but they did nothing.

I'm wondering now if their total indifference to the things that happened to me conditioned me into thinking that I shouldn't report the rape.

I did, in the end. Took years though.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 16:35:53

I too feel a serial victim of men TrustNobody for all kinds of reasons.

Badvoc Fri 05-Oct-12 16:36:39

Lots of low level abuse aimed at me over the years...from schoolboys to grown men.
It's depressingly common.
Been flashed etc
Followed home.
Menacing phone calls.
The usual....sad

MoomieAndFreddie Fri 05-Oct-12 16:36:55

YANBU

i have been, would rather not say exactly what, but it was "mild" ie think being groped in a club etc...and most of my friends have too sad

LadyFlumpalot Fri 05-Oct-12 16:36:58

Now I'm thinking about it, I'm remembering loads of things. They just did not seem like assault at the time.

Being coerced into playing "kissing" with a teenage lad at the age of 6.

Walked home with a lad who I fancied, stopped for a snog, he rammed his hand up my skirt so hard I yelped and had bruises.

An ex "persuading" me into a strip club and coercing me into having a lap dance from a woman.

nirvana1111 Fri 05-Oct-12 16:38:08

I stopped reading at the baby abuse post because I felt so sick.so apologies if this has already been said but why the fuck did you think it would be ok to post that with no warning. You are nearly as bad as the news who showed it. Disgusting.

HolyAutumnGoldBatman Fri 05-Oct-12 16:39:10

'Just read some more posts, really surprised that some women have never been assaulted'

that's very disturbing.

I have a friend who until recently I didn't know had been raped as a child. She didn't tell me, my SIL did. She asked if my friend was still called '7up', a nickname given to her after her ordeal, my SIL took great pleasure in questioning me about wether the nickname was because she was 7 years old at the time or she had had been raped by 7 men.
I don't think I have ever felt as sickened as I was that day, I haven't spoken to SIL since and do my upmost to stay away from her.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 16:39:52

It was on national news nirvana. How do you think I felt I fickibn saw it.

nirvana1111 Fri 05-Oct-12 16:41:54

Sorry you saw it but IMO you really didn't need to share that. It doesn't really have anything to do with the thread and just upsets people.

BackforGood Fri 05-Oct-12 16:42:10

I think YABU to project your experience on to "most" women.
I've never been the victim of any kind of sexual abuse, and consider that the norm, tbh. Clearly there are a lot of people posting the same on here.
It's terrible that it has happened to anyone, but saying "most" women have been victims is a big jump IMO.

nokidshere Fri 05-Oct-12 16:42:18

I have never been sexually assulted, groped, flashed at, slapped on the arse or anything. I have never been in a position where I could say anyone has taken advantage of me or shown me unwanted sexual attention. Should I count myself lucky? I don't think so.

I think its incredibly sad that many others have suffered and that they don't always feel able to report it. But I really hope that it isn't "most women"! No-one that I know of in my circle of friends has (although obviously it might just not be talked about)

I also find it "interesting" (sorry for want of a better word) that some people have been abused or have had unwanted sexual attention more than once by different people.

BreconBeBuggered Fri 05-Oct-12 16:43:34

she, I don't think it happens to women/girls who don't appear confident. It happens because the perpetrators are abusive pricks.

MadBusLady Fri 05-Oct-12 16:45:11

I'm not sure shewhowines. I've never been particularly confident, but I've also never been that interesting to arseholes somehow (or not that particular kind of arsehole anyway!) and never been friends with them. Probably a bit too sulky-faced and geeky when young.

I had a discussion about this with DP, after he'd been reading some feminist blog posts about how all the decent, normal men should speak out against their arsehole mates who did this kind of thing, and not indulge the more shadowy parts of their "blokiness". He said he totally agreed, but it was kind of difficult, because he didn't want to be friends with arseholes in the first place. The arseholes who grow up thinking it's ok to assault women are also very likely to have aggressed the men whom they considered inferior beta types. So quite a lot of your normal, decent men will have grown up avoiding the arseholes, and they don't get challenged.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 16:46:14

It was abusive to air tbat disgisting photograph. I felt sick for ages. It abused my.innocence.

GotMyGoat Fri 05-Oct-12 16:46:50

Can somebody report the baby in a dress itv post for me? I don't want to back to it. Its a very distressing and triggering post - i know the poster didn't mean any harm but if needs a warning label on it if it remains.

nokidshere Fri 05-Oct-12 16:47:03

I have to say that I cannot believe ITV would show such a thing - if it were years ago and you were younger are you sure you are not mistaken?

FromEsme Fri 05-Oct-12 16:47:22

I really think you need to report that post, SoleSource and have it deleted. I really did not need to read that without any sort of warning on it.

I have been groped in clubs more times than I can count, and had to fight a man off me in his bedroom.

And I was flashed twice on the same night, both times the men were masturbating. Totally disgusting.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 16:48:34

I ficking saw it I would not beable to make that up!

nokidshere Fri 05-Oct-12 16:50:14

I didn't say that you made it up - simply thought you saw something that wasn't there? I really do not believe that ITV would be able to show something so graphic?

Nothing ever happened to me and TBH I'm shocked and sad that so many of you have

ThatBintAgain Fri 05-Oct-12 16:55:53

Aren't the statistics 1 in 4 women though, or is it higher?

thekidsrule Fri 05-Oct-12 17:01:09

yanbu me and countless friends have experienced this in one degree or another

TraineeBabyCatcher Fri 05-Oct-12 17:02:05

When I look back on it now, as an adult, a parent and with a sibling of a very similar age then yes, I think I was in a respect. I had consensual sex at 14 with a 19 year old.
I don't in anyway feel affected by it, except for embarrassment because I consented. However, he did in effect take advantage of me. I would be horrifed to learn my sister/child did the same with someone at that age. She's my baby sister, she's not old enough or mature enough to really make an informed decision like that!

SinisterBuggyMonth Fri 05-Oct-12 17:04:23

Soul I know it was horrible. But alot of people on here have small children and you read a description like that and it just makes you think. My dp and I were watching the news at 6pm and there was a report on the crimal, the age of the child, and one basic word to describe what he did. We both had to stop.eating our dinner. I cant forget it, poor kid, but i'm not going to put it.in anyone elses head.

What worries me is that these days sex is only talked about on tv prewatersed on the news as a violent or abusive act. Maybe these stories should only be reported later on.

IRCL Fri 05-Oct-12 17:07:13

I was going to say YABU to say most however, on reflection I remembered something. When I was 15 me and my then friend got offered a lift home by three men in a car. I wanted to go on the train but my friend thought differently, they asked how old we were and I said Fif before I felt a nudge in my back from my friend. She said we were 16. They gave us a lift not far from home, after a bit of flirting/joking we eventually got out the car..I can't really remember exactly what went on from there.

I ended up outside down by the side of the local supermarket having sex with a 23 year old man that I had known for about 30 minutes. I was a virgin and I told him that. I asked him to slow down as it was really hurting by that point.

He said he would just do something else but only did for a short while then was inside me again.

Looking back I really didn't see it as anything other than a mistake. I ended up confiding in a friend who confided in her mum who made me tell someone. I had to have an interview in a room, be medically examined. It was all quite awful really, the exam came back that my genitals were bruised, I presume that was because of how rough/fast he was being.

I will never ever forgive myself for not catching the train home that night and for going along with something I really didn't want to.

I feel so sad that that experience is my 1st sexual experience.

Sorry it is so long, didn't realise how much I had written! shock

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 17:10:21

After creating the tbread it came into my mi.d, I felt sick so wrote it to getit oyt. Writing made me feel sick tio.

So angry with ITN was 2001 ti 2003

Have reported my post and sorry everyone sad

DoIgetastickerforthat Fri 05-Oct-12 17:10:31

I hope that there are women out there who have not been subject to assault, but I have. Several times.

-A teenage boy tried to coerce me into sex when I was about 6.
-A man in his 40's/50's groped me on a train when I was 9.
-2 Uncles, 1 used to make suggestive comments about 'giving me a bath' and 'tucking me into bed', I was about 13/14. The other tried to stick his tongue down my throat in a pub (I was in my early twenties).
-Attacked in an underpass, which I thankfully preempted and managed to get away.
-Tricked into meeting some friends of friends at a house, when I got there they weren't there but a guy was and he locked me in and threatened to stab me if I didn't have sex with him. Managed to escape without him touching me but it was a very close call.
-A boss offered me money to sleep with me and became very hostile when I refused.

Plus the usual lewd, shouted remarks out of vans, gropings in clubs and a couple of pervy teachers. Still, I do count myself reasonably lucky to have never been fully assaulted but I do think it has a negative effect even when it's low-level. I'm now very happy to be old and fat and invisible to the majority of men.

Charliefox Fri 05-Oct-12 17:13:33

I've had lots of advances over the years, including being told by a man when I was about 10 that I was a "pretty little tiger", being grabbed, gropped and kissed by an old boyfriends father, being rubbed up against by a flute teacher at school during a private lesson when I was 12 and being propositioned by the father of the children I was babysitting when I was 14. Do I consider myself to have been abused in anyway at all? Not even remotely.

YANBU, Ex bf forced himself on me a few times while I was crying and saying no. Woken up to a friend touching me, I just lay there frozen until they were done. Fell asleep (1 too many...) at a friends house, someone else there saw fit to try and finger me, happily the friend noticed this happening and so smashed the blokes head in to a wall (felt a bit guilty as it was a partition wall and it left a sizable hole). 2 friends and my mother have been violently raped, I just consider myself lucky that I have never been physically hurt by anyone sexually asulting me. sad

Makingmama Fri 05-Oct-12 17:24:35

When I was 14 I was home alone in the afternoon. A 19yo or so male who lived on an estate close to our home knocked on our door, I answered and he forced his way into the house and started kissing/groping me and dragging me upstairs sad I was quite literally terrified. I was shouting at him, begging no, telling him that my dad was just at the shop next door etc. I don't know what changed his mind - if he realised that maybe my dad would walk in any second, maybe...but he just walked out then...I never told anyone and never have until now. I wish I'd had the courage to tell my parents.

When I was 16 I was working late at a hotel about 5min walk from my house. Left there about 11pm to walk home. As soon as I was outside of the back of the hotel another 16yo boy I had known of at school was walking past and decided to grab me and drag be down the side of an alley into a dark car park. He started kissing/groping me sad and trying to undo my belt/trousers...I was frozen in fear. I think someone must have come by or something but he suddenly decided to stop his attempted rape and ran off. I was terrified (again!) A woman from work called me a taxi to take me home as I told her i didn't want to call the police hmm

When I was 19 there was a party being held in the shared house I lived in. I was drugged and raped.

I have started thinking about this all a lot more this year (now being a monther of 2 ds's and 1 dd)...it is very disturbing. I don't feel I would be believed if I told someone that all of this had happened to me.

I will bring my dc's up to respect people's boundaries and that NO means NO!!!

PeshwariNaan Fri 05-Oct-12 17:26:17

I was groped at church by someone who was visiting when I was 11 - it was really bizarre. They'd been in the audience for the feelgood musical we'd just finished. I never told anyone.

cbeebiesatemybrain Fri 05-Oct-12 17:26:39

Yanbu, its only now that I'm older and have 2 dcs of my own that I can look back at lots of incidents in my past and see that they were not right. My boss gave me a lift home one night after work, invited himself in and refused to leave until I showed him my boobs. I pretended my dad had just woken up and would go batshit if he found him there, he scarpered pretty quickly after that and I just thought it was a minor annoyance, I was only 16 ffs! A colleague later complained about him sexually harassing her after he did something similar to her. There were loads of raised eyebrows and tuts about that because it was just his way apparently, he was just the comedy pervert hmm and every female in that place had a story to tell about him.

Also one night I was "accused" of being a lesbian by a friend of a friend because I wasn't interested in sleeping with him. That night I slept at the mutual friends house while a few others carried on drinking downstairs. I woke up to find him in the bed with his hand in my knickers! I shouted at him to leave and he persisted for a few more minutes before leaving while shouting at me that I was frigid, gay, nothing special anyway and various other insults angry. I sort of just shrugged it off and thought he was a cunt but now I think wtf?! I would be horrified if that happened to my dd!

GoldShip Fri 05-Oct-12 17:28:52

Defo

When I was younger (15?) we used to go drinking in a house with some girls we knew. Her dad would come and give us coke.

I slept the house one night and he got into bed with me in the middle of the night. sad trying to touch me and saying 'ill give you anything you want'

Never spoke about it before actually. Not something I like to remember.

GoldShip Fri 05-Oct-12 17:29:40

Some horrible stories in here. Feel so sorry that women have been through stuff like this sad.

Hope every single one of you are ok x

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 05-Oct-12 17:34:07

I've never been raped, but I have been sexually abused more than once and had unwelcome attention at work, and had to fight off a man that I believe would have raped me. I also think I had a drink spiked once, although I can't prove it either way I hate to think of what could have happened if I hadn't had friends around.

It's not from reading MN that I realised how common this is, I always just thought it was something to do with me.

MotherOfSuburbia Fri 05-Oct-12 17:34:44

I have never experienced this and, of the people I know who I am close enough that they would tell me, the majority have not experienced it either. I'd like to believe that this is the norm but obviously there's no way to tell.

So sorry for people who have had terrible experiences. There is never any excuse for this kind of behaviour.

chipsandmushypeas Fri 05-Oct-12 17:38:09

I think we need to teach our dds to speak up if anyone violates them, but also teach them it is wrong if someone does something they don't like, give them the confidence to tell someone.

GoldShip Fri 05-Oct-12 17:39:35

Defo chipsandmushy. I knew I should have done, but never did because I know my (step)dad would be in jail still now if I had.

VeritableSmorgasbord Fri 05-Oct-12 17:41:31

I've had experiences which I have laughed at with friends, but which were abusive in a sexual context - I learned from them and don't consider that I've been attacked or anything, but they are a grey area.
Many of my friends have too. We laughed a lot about useless men and how stupid we were around them.
Then we had kids, I suppose, and grew older, and realised where the men were coming from.

chipsandmushypeas Fri 05-Oct-12 17:42:13

Yy same re stepdad. When I'm out, I feel very aware of people near me and I'm always ready for a man to do something violating i.e touch bum etc which is terrible in itself

chandellina Fri 05-Oct-12 17:47:16

Yanbu, I was groped at 10 by a boy my age, flashed at 11, harassed by boys at school at 13 and lots and lots of street harassment when living in new york city. I consider all that pretty mild though and in a way it's just part of life.

Boys and men have their own issues too, most I know have had fights started or other violence inflicted on them.

GoldShip Fri 05-Oct-12 17:47:41

Ill just add that I don't mean my stepdad did anything to me, I meant he'd have seriously hurt the man who tried to. (I re-read and realised it could be misconstrued)

ZeldaUpNorth Fri 05-Oct-12 17:47:52

I haven't read all the replies, but I am one of the very lucky ones who has never had any unwanted advances. But I am a very private person, dont have many friends, dont go out much so that is probably the reason.
I think about my childhood and i used to go places with my friends dad (with my parents permission-they didnt know him particularly well) and he used to take me in his friends houses and so much could of went on, but luckily it was all innocent. I would never let my dd's do that ( i was about 8-9)

I'm really shocked at how many women have had to go through that and I feel so sad for them, and hope they can still have a good, happy life regardless.

chipsandmushypeas Fri 05-Oct-12 17:50:39

Ah! Yes I thought you meant that gold

defineme Fri 05-Oct-12 17:57:39

YANBU because it happens everywhere.
However, I've never had an unwanted sexual advance beyond an embarrassing wolf whistle/saw a flasher but was with my Mum/large group of friends and didn't feel any fear-just 'how tragic you saddo'towards the bloke. I've always put it down to being tall and intimidating looking, but I imagine it's just luck.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 18:02:43

Just awful, sad stories. I hope they get their commeuppace sad

hippermiddleton Fri 05-Oct-12 18:03:27

Reading this has really opened my eyes, in a sad way. I can honestly say I've never endured any sort of unwanted sexual advance, or been flashed at or groped, or harrassed - any exploration with boyfriends was always mutual. Clearly I've been lucky, or just led a very sheltered life.

CwtchesAndCuddles Fri 05-Oct-12 18:08:02

I'm another of the lucky ones thank God.

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 18:08:43

I've mostly led a lucky life, with a few blips here and there.

I'll relate the weirdest one.

Now, to give the background, I was home-educated, and didn't know anything about sex except the biological mechanics until I was 15. Very important detail.

When I was 12, I was on my own in a supermarket queue one particular day. There was a man behind me, who kept pressing his crotch to my bottom. When I moved forward in the queue, so did he, and he regained his position against my bottom.

At the time, I simply had no idea that there could be a sexual dimension to his actions. I thought it was odd, and thought he must be doing it by accident. I just pretended it wasn't happening, in the same way I would have done if he'd been repeatedly stepping on my foot, because I didn't want to embarrass him. I really wish I'd known about sexual activity back then.

pigletmania Fri 05-Oct-12 18:12:41

I thank my lucky stars I have never been abused in any way. sad for those of you that have

CouthyMowWearingOrange Fri 05-Oct-12 18:15:15

Raped at 4yo. As soon as I grew breasts (was 28E by 14yo), daily gropings in school and out, was raped again at 15yo, every time I went into a nightclub I would be groped, had bosses threaten to sack me if I didn't sleep with them, raped repeatedly within an abusive relationship, propositioned frequently even now, often while doing innocuous things like shopping, taxi drivers often, it's constant tbh.

The only difference now is that I won't accept it and that I challenge it each and every time.

MrsRajeshKoothrappali Fri 05-Oct-12 18:15:48

Another person here who was snapped at by a police woman about what I was wearing when reporting a rape. I'd been wearing jeans and a big hoodie for 'the incident' so she was talking utter shite. I wish sooooo badly I hadn't gone. She made me feel worse than my attacker did. Set me back badly.

Was also groped in the street by a group of French tourists. Cunts.

Numerous older men in nursing homes I've worked in too.

bubalou Fri 05-Oct-12 18:16:49

I'm very lucky to have never experienced any of the awful things and I'm very sorry for all of you that have.

I literally can't think of anything. I've had the odd jerk touch my arse in a night club but nothing that a quick slap in the face or kick in the crotch didn't sort out. smile

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 18:19:17

Another one of the unlucky ones, here, too.

But I suspect we are in the vast majority. Conditioned to be unspeaking.

mirry2 Fri 05-Oct-12 18:19:46

In the 1970s I was regularly sexually assaulted by a GP who I now realise was grooming me as he wanted me in every 2 weeks to fondle check my breasts as they would give some indication of heart disease angry.
As soon as the penny dropped I changed doctors and told my new GP. She advised me not to report it as it would cause me a lot of anxiety and nobody would beleive me. I'm sure she was right. How times have changed!

CouthyMowWearingOrange Fri 05-Oct-12 18:23:17

There's more than I have posted tbh, but it would fill a long page.

I'm just glad that I no longer quietly accept this as normal, despite it being a constant presence around me.

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 18:24:26

All women I know well enough to discuss it in real life with have some really bad stories. sad

Blistory Fri 05-Oct-12 18:24:49

Is anyone else appalled at the level of self entitlement to women's bodies that some men have ? Flashing, groping, lewd looks & comments seem to be almost the norm. Unless we start calling these out for what they are, ie unacceptable sexual behaviour levelled at women, then it's never going to improve.

Sickened by the number of posters who have experienced this and worse but sadly not surprised.

emeraldgirl1 Fri 05-Oct-12 18:26:53

I was reading this thinking how lucky I am that I never had any unwanted sexual experiences when suddenly I remembered the male 'friend' who led me away at a party when I was rolling drunk, locked us on the bathroom and pushed my head up and down repeatedly on his penis, my first ever experience (ha!) of a blow job. I was 18 and ridiculously inexperienced and had absolutely no idea what he was doing or how to stop it. Then I remembered the other 'friend' who got into my bed and refused to get out until I gave him a hand job... And the other male friends when I was 16 and 17 who used to regularly grope our breasts as a way if showing affection...

God I was naive!!! My friends and I just accepted it as normal!!! And ok!

Obviously a million miles from the awful awful things I have just read on here sad but I am shocked nonetheless that I thought these things were ok back then, even though they made me feel gross and icky.

emeraldgirl1 Fri 05-Oct-12 18:31:11

Oh and my best friend was date raped by a guy when she was 20, she was drunk and he kindly took her home then got into her bed, got on top of her, did his business and left. Again, at the time we all just made a kind of shocked gossipy joke about it.. We were appalled but it didn't actually occur to us that it was, technically, sex without (any) consent. Looking back, I can't believe we weren't more clued up.

CakeBump Fri 05-Oct-12 18:31:59

I think YABU

And it never fails to amaze me that lots of MNers think the opposite.

Maybe I, my friends and my family have just been lucky, but I honestly don't think so.

I think you get a skewed cross section on here for some reason.

Boomerwang Fri 05-Oct-12 18:32:24

I have no idea how common it is, but just wanted to say that although I've regretted numerous sexual encounters and I've been followed off a bus by a very drunk bloke who wanted to get it on with me, I've never suffered a real unwanted sexual attack.

GoldShip Fri 05-Oct-12 18:32:39

blistory it is sickening. I'm also shocked at how more and more women think its acceptable to do the same to men, like they're 'fair game'. They should know how it feels.

Oh god yanbu.

I've thought about this a lot of late as i genuinely fear for my two dd's in this world. I've had so many instances that i'm sure no-one would believe me. The worst was having my drink spiked abd being assaulted in a toilet. I went to the police who were next to useless but weirdly because i cant remember it very well at all i'm not as effected by it.

A guy wanking right up in front of my face when i was 11, i reported him as a flasher, it wasnt until i learned about masterbation that i realised the full extent of that incident.

A group of us all crashed after a party at a friends house. A lad came in trying it on but my male friend burst in and kicked him out and walked me home at 5am.

I worked in a pub that has two floors, i was upstairs clearing up when a guy came in and blocked the doorway and i knew instantly what he planned. Thank god with every fibre of my being my boyfriend at the time chose to visit me as a surprise and came in behind this guy. I still get chills thinking about that.

The one that i cannot shift in my mind. My friend and i went abroad and she hooked up with a guy from a big male group in a neighbouring apartment. One night she decided to stay with him in his bed and i'd begged her not to, she assured me she was safe etc and this lad promises to look after her. My friend refused to come back and told me to leave the apartment door open for her. I woke up with this guy lying on me scrambling around pulling my knickers off. It was a guy from the group obviously knowing i was alone with the door open. He was kissing me and touching me and i was frozen to the bed. I was absolutely petrified but said 'let me just lock the door so my friend wont come in' and he agreed. I ran for my friend and she laughed sad.

even now she tells everyone i was 'naughty' on holiday and her parents laugh at my 'antics' which makes me feel sick.

YvonneMcGruder Fri 05-Oct-12 18:35:32

YABU to think that most have. Some might have, yes but it's definitely not the norm.
I never have, not even any unwanted advances or flashes.

MadBusLady Fri 05-Oct-12 18:36:56

shock Why are you still friends with her??

MajorB Fri 05-Oct-12 18:39:19

In my lifetime I've been flashed, suffered an attempted rape (stranger in a dark alley that I managed to fight off), sexually assaulted by a taxi driver, had to reject four different bosses sexual advances, and groped by various strangers.
I don't think I'm a "victim" type (if there actually is one) and by that i mean only that i was able to physically fight off several attacks, and in many cases I was wearing what would be considered "frumpy" clothes, so it's not like any Daily Mail reader could say I brought it on myself by dressing/acting like a "slut".
My point is this; whilst there seem to be some "lucky" ones on this thread, if each of us had only been assaulted once, and our subsequent assaults directed at others, then actually I think that most females would have been sexually abused at some stage. sad

CockyPants Fri 05-Oct-12 18:41:39

YANBU.
Guess I'm one of the 'unlucky' ones too.

joanofarchitrave Fri 05-Oct-12 18:41:51

'while these experiences may be a lot more common than society at large would think, they are nonetheless NOT our inevitable fate'

This.

Almost nothing in my case; a couple of gropes and some stuff with boyfriends that was more about being unable to assert myself tbh. And one tiny one that disturbed me disproportionately, and by doing so I think showed a rape myth alive and well in my mind. I live in a street of terraced houses so doors are right on the street. I was standing in front of my front door finding my key and a man passed by behind me, and placed his hand very carefully and briefly on my arse. That was it. But I was genuinely upset, partly because it was on my own street in front of my own home, but also because i was 40 years old and 3 stone overweight and wearing an ancient old cagoule, saggy jeans and smelly trainers. Something in me still believed that I had genuinely become invisible and free as a fat older woman, that I no longer had to think about being groped or raped or pressed into sex, and that what I was wearing really made a difference. Despite having read and agreed with lots of stuff about 'whatever we wear, wherever we go', I still thought it, deep down. Depressing.

Blistory Fri 05-Oct-12 18:45:06

I don't think it is a skewed cross section on here at all. I'm not surprised by the posters who admit they've been flashed at but didn't view it as serious or assault. Nor am I surprised at the number of posters who have stated that their initial reaction was 'no, not happened to me' and then stated that they've just remembered a long ago incident that they now see for what it was.

We're expected to put up with it because it is/was the norm and that's a real issue. We don't make a big deal because we're taught or expected to deal with it as if it isn't. I'm not going to apologise for being pissed off that any woman is subjected to this kind of crap. It's unacceptable. No excuses, no explanations, just totally unacceptable and needs to stop being tolerated and recognised for what it is.

AllPastYears Fri 05-Oct-12 18:47:28

I would think it's most women, not just some. I have been flashed at, had my boob grabbed in public, had my bum grabbed, had my crotch grabbed. And are we counting verbal abuse? (E.g. on the way to the supermarket, "Wanna fuck?" I ignored him and walked on, for which I got "Effing bitch." hmm) Oh yes, guy wanking next to me in the cinema.

And I'm no oil painting! (Was dark in the cinema I guess, but still...)

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 18:49:00

I have never ever dressed in the stereotypical way that people might think females dress to attract unwabted attention.

If there is anyone on this thread or,reading who does think that maybe we asked for it because of our style of dress. You are so wrong you need help

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 18:52:56

A man or woman will sexualky abuse if they are thst way inclined, regardless. All we can do as non abusers is be aware of our safety and weigh up risks as far as we can do so. Even then it is not guaranteed to not happen.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 18:55:05

'MN - A Skewed Sample!'

I don't think so. Nor do all the Government Departments who pay people to watch MN.

FreudiansGoldSlipper Fri 05-Oct-12 18:55:08

yes i have. step granddad when i was around 4. when around 8ish constant inappropriate touching from an uncle, thankfully to soem extent he was controlled we were never left alone with him Ex partner sexually assault me, lost count of the groping on trains, innaropriate remarks from boss and a threat that if i did not sleep with him i would lose my job and a few men coming on very strong and in a very threatening way

CakeBump this is a subject we can only ever really speak for ourselves. i am glad to hear that you have not fallen victim, and i truly hope those close to you have not. why at times opinions may seem so skewed is because we are anonymous and many feel they can be totally honest. read how many on here have never told anyone

janflan Fri 05-Oct-12 18:55:44

I was groomed by paedophile when i was 11, i didn't work out that was what it was until i was an adult. Very luckily my friend and i escaped when he had locked us in his car one night after plying us with alcohol. It's scary looking back i didn't realise how bad it was at the time. The police got involved but he was never charged. We weren't the only people he did it to either.I felt a great sense of relief when i heard he had died.

I also had an incident with being possibly being drugged on a date and. being taken to a hotel room and not being allowed to leave. I can't say for sure what happened because i don't know.

Lastly was dancing in a pub with my friend when 2 blokes came over and started dancing with us. The one pushed me against the wall and tried to kiss me then put his hand down my trousers. I pushed him away and he called me a prick tease for apparently dancing sexily.

CakeBump Fri 05-Oct-12 18:56:10

Ok, it might be a question of definitions then.

I have been flashed at, had my bum grabbed and been "propositioned", I just don't count that as sexual abuse.

sittinginthesun Fri 05-Oct-12 18:56:23

Just lost my post, but YANBU!

I have had a pretty boring life, but can think of at least six incidents, from when I was a young child, and an older boy was very interested in us younger girls, to teachers groping in sports lessons, fellow students stalking and assaulting, a very scary assume by a male "friend", and a boss who tried to take my top off and put his hand up my skirt when I was driving at 70 mph down a duel carriageway.

Thankfully, I managed to physically fight off the more serious ones (self defence lessons at school were very handy).

I think we all grew up just assuming that these things happen, and you just have to try and avoid putting yourself at too much risk, and fight back when you have to.

Rubbish, isn't it.sadsadsad

Blistory Fri 05-Oct-12 18:57:29

Disagree with that a bit Sole as that keeps the onus on us as women to have to defend ourselves. The default position is not that women say no, it should be that men don't behave that way in the first place.

Girls should be taught that it's okay to want sex and that they fully participate in the experience. Boys should be taught that they need to ensure active consent and participation, that girls bodies are to be respected and that it's not okay to leer, to touch. That way there is no confusion and the blame is put where it belongs when it goes wrong - on the attacker, not the victim.

MaBaya Fri 05-Oct-12 18:58:58

Yes, have been flashed at several times, starting at the age of 14 yrs old. I have been groped several times (breasts, bum) on the tube and in busy clubs/bars (somebody actually inserted their fingers in me at a festival...turned around and saw a gang of guys just smiling benignly, no idea who did it).

I was raped repeatedly within a relationship as a young woman, although at the time I didnt realise it was rape, sadly.

I have had two taxi drivers proposition me aggressively and felt each time I had only narrowly avoided assault.

There are so many examples, really. Quite depressing!

sittinginthesun Fri 05-Oct-12 18:59:10

Scary assault. (iPhone, sorry!)

FreudiansGoldSlipper Fri 05-Oct-12 18:59:12

forgot about the flashing and the taxi driver stopping the cab and saying this is how far he would go but i could change his mind, fucker stopped in the middle of wimbledon common i was 17 very young looking and i was around 9 at night in the middle of a freezing winter evening sad

fuck it is never ending

MrsRobertDuvallHasRosacea Fri 05-Oct-12 19:02:45

I have been very lucky.
Nothing to report here.
And I am in my fifties.
I lived in Leeds when the Ripper was around, and remember the fear which gripped the city. A horrible feeling.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 19:08:10

I remember that, MrsDuvall. The Ripper was thought to be from the North-East so it gripped everyone here as well. Not going out after dark meant being trapped inside or getting taxis after 3pm in the winter, one year.

Loonytoonie Fri 05-Oct-12 19:15:10

My brother attempted penetrative sex for several years with me, from the age of about 6 I think (he was 6 years older). I'd sit with my back against the door and legs against a chest of drawers, to stop him from getting at me. And all along he'd hiss "slut" or "slag" at me through the broken door. He always managed to get me eventually though.sad

On a bus to a gymnastic demonstration when I was about 13. Most of the other gymnasts were quite street-wise and gobby whereas I was always shy and quiet. They egged another lad on the bus to 'have a go' at me and I ended up pinned against the floor and the back seat while we forced his tongue in my mouth and masturbated against my clothes. The girls thought it was hysterical. I'll never forget you, Tonya and Erika.

My first long-term boyfriend whom I adored. He was the jealous type. On a hot summers day, he accused me of looking and lusting after a pedestrian we drove past - he happened to have his top of. When we got home, he forced his finger inside me to see if I was 'wet', thus to prove that I was lying.

This is the first time I've ever told anyone about this.

God.

Bicnod Fri 05-Oct-12 19:15:50

IME YANBU sad

mirry2 Fri 05-Oct-12 19:16:27

I had so many experiences when I was younger. I just thought it was the norm thh.
I remember 'prickteaser' was a common remark made to me when I didn't want sex. It used to really embarrass me and make me feel small and naive.

GoldShip Fri 05-Oct-12 19:20:44

Loonytunie that's awful you poor poor thing. I hope you're okay.

Your second story reminded me of when I was walking home one day and 3 boys pinned me down on the floor and was trying to shove their tongues in my mouth. One of them said 'have you ever been ragged' and roughly thrust himself on me a few times. It felt like hours and they kept letting me get up but then pinning me back down again.

This is one of the reasons why I buried myself in martial arts and street fighting. No man no matter how big could do that go me now.

QueenStromba Fri 05-Oct-12 19:23:57

Come to think of it I can add several more experiences to my previous post. I've had a few taxi drivers who have tried it on with me quite aggressively and made me feel rather scared. There was also the time where I was walking from Park Street in Bristol to Temple Meads train station at 7/8 on a Saturday morning because I couldn't get a taxi after being out clubbing all night. There was a car just stopped at the side of the road, I walked past him and he started following me slowly. I'm thankful that I was sober enough to notice this and realise that he probably didn't have good intentions. I'm also grateful that there was a young man about 100 meters away on the other side of the road. I ran to catch up with him and explained that I was being followed, as soon as I did that the car sped away. That man was fantastic and walked me right to the entrance of the station because he could see how shaken up I was about it. I shudder to think what might have happened to me if he wasn't there.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 19:26:09

Just sad and angry

I feel low

Shesparkles Fri 05-Oct-12 19:28:18

Going by those who have already posted I'm either very very "lucky" or very very scary. I can honestly say, hand on heart that I've never experienced anything of this nature.
I'm so sorry for those of you who have though, I do understand the long lasting effects it can have x

MadBusLady Fri 05-Oct-12 19:29:32

Ok, I have hesitated about saying this too, but...

I get that the "lucky" thing removes all trace of victim-blaming. But on the other hand it reinforces this general sense of doom, as if we're all cowering waiting to be assaulted unless we are very "lucky".

I don't think we should do that.

I have not been "lucky", I have led a normal, non-sexually assaulted life and I start from the position of hoping/expecting that to be the case for everyone. I think it's important to start from there. We should be angry, not low.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Fri 05-Oct-12 19:32:15

I wonder how many males have been victim of some kind of sexual abuse?

I did group therapy for sexual abuse and there were plenty of men there who had been abused by women, and also plenty of women there who had been abused by other women.

I have also always found that when out for the evening drinking women often think its fine to grab a mans bum or even his genital area and see that as just a laugh. But of course done to them it is sexual assault.

FromEsme Fri 05-Oct-12 19:34:42

yes, why bother talking about women's experience when there are men out there not being talked about?

I've been flashed at.

Once while staying with a friend I woke up at 4am when my friends next door neighbour tried to get into bed with me. He was persistent but I got away unscathed.

There but for the grace of God....

GoldShip Fri 05-Oct-12 19:38:32

Fromesme - no need for that was there?

fuckadoodle made an interesting point.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 19:39:30

Was the neighbour male or female Katie, did he/she break into the house? sad

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 19:41:35

I am ignorant if the official procdures for sex offenders but does anybody believe they can be rehabilitated? Isnt it just their natures and can never be changed/re-educated?

It was a he and yes he did break in.

We had been yakking over the fence to him earlier.....

GobHoblin Fri 05-Oct-12 19:43:18

It only occured to me about 10 years ago that the locum doctor that i saw when i was 16 and wanted to go on the pill had no reason whatsoever to examine my breasts. I didnt feel violated at the time as i thought thats just what had to be done. Its only since it makes me feel sick and wonder if he's still doing it

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 19:44:51

Shit. did you have him prosecuted Katie or anything?

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 19:46:23

A GP gave me a smear test in my early twenties. I always wondered whether he was being inappropriate or not. There was just me abd him. This was about 1995.

AllPastYears Fri 05-Oct-12 19:46:31

Loony, that's horrible. sad How do you get on with your family in the wake of that?

AppleCatchers Fri 05-Oct-12 19:46:36

I was raped was seeing a guy we walked across a field as it was a short cut to the street I thought I was safe with him obviously not never reported it cos I some how felt to blame I also think I was in denial that I was actually raped never told a soul but did lose respect for myself for a while, its not something I like think about. If similar happened dd when older I would be out for blood.

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 19:48:59

MadBusLady

I see the issue. It's difficult. If I don't refer to having been "lucky" I worry my posts could be trigger-y to all the many women who have been told it was their own fault.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 19:51:28

Ooh Apple. Why do so many of us not report it? Me included. Guess it is not being believed, what others think and how we feel about ourselves.

We should not feel that wsy, I hope things continue to improve.

QueenStromba Fri 05-Oct-12 19:51:28

I'm going to add again to my long list. When I was about 18 I had an experience where I couldn't remember most of a night and woke up with finger tip shaped bruises all over my chest and heard all sorts of stories about what I'd been doing. I'm pretty sure I was spiked with rohypnol because my experience matches up with the suggestiveness/inhibition and memory loss that happens with rohypnol. At the time I was too ashamed to talk to the police and thought it probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway because the men involved were only in the country for one weekend. I didn't realise I'd been roofied until many years later when I read the effects of rohypnol on the internet.

takesthebiscuit Fri 05-Oct-12 19:51:28

I have been considering starting a post on this topic myself recently.

All my early sexual experiences (from the age of 12) have been with older men who gave coerced me into it.

The first time it nearly happened I was shaking with fear and he couldn't penetrate. I now realise this was because I was clamped up and too scared but he kept telling me that the reason was because I wasn't fully developed. It went on for hours before he finally gave up.

Another incident that sticks in my mind was where I was 13 and hung around with a local group of young adults drinking etc. one night I got really drunk (stupid) and couldn't even stand up. There were 3 young men stood around laughing while I vomited on the floor. One handed me a chewing gum, pulled me up and started leading me down a lath to a secluded spot. It didn't register what was happening even when the other men started shouting 'give her one fit me' as in my 13 year old naivety, I thought because he had a girlfriend he wouldn't want to cheat on her. He pinned me up against the wall and all I kept saying is 'what about your x (the girlfriends name). He didn't say a word before it was over and he dropped me to the floor and said, 'you'll be ok to walk yourself home won't you?' And left. I sat on the floor for a whole feeling really confused about what has happened. At the time I didn't really see what he did as wrong and even now I am reluctant to class the incident as rape even though it was definitely unwanted and I thought I was making that clear. It's only now in older that it upsets me that it happened.

Lots if other minor incidences like a 40 odd year old council worker forcing his tongue down my neck and coming back in his car outside my house and calling me on the phone to come and meet him (luckily I was too frightened to go). My boss in my first jobs pointedly brushing my boobs whenever he needed to pass me paper work etc several times a day and leaning over me uncomfortably close.

I was going to start my own thread because all my experiences of men (and I mean all men) have led me to hate men. It affects me every day as most of the time I can't look men in the eye and I always feel very uncomfortable around them. I worry about his this will affect me when I return to work (SAHM at the moment). I have a DP but I don't fully trust him either.

Sorry that was so long. YANBU.

No Sole

I have no idea why not, the thought just didn't occur to me.

It bloody would now though.

YANBU

I have had this conversation with a group of friends in the past. 9/10 had experienced this sort of thing mentioned here.

Personally, I was a victim of a pedophile on the telephone age 10. I don't remember how long he groomed me for, but I do remember telling my mum when he asked about pubic hair in his long story of he is a photographer and I am a model. Maybe a few weeks.
Parents reported to police and I know the phone was tapped. Mum pretends she can't remember it now, but I doubt he was caught.

Aged mid twenties a man I knew locked me in the ladies toilets with him during a fairly drunk night whilst my fiancée was in the bar outside. I didn't fear him but strangely I knew I had to scream. Yet no noise came out. That was the moment I panicked. Luckily another woman banged endlessly on the door for a pee and drew attention to the locked door from outside.

And 18 in a nightclub I had my crotch not only groped on a staircase but penetrated it was so violent.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 19:59:46

Same here Katie

Occurred to me but worried what people might think/say.

thank you for sharing

MadBusLady Fri 05-Oct-12 20:04:37

TheBigJessie. Agree. I did hesitate about posting it. I definitely do NOT want anybody here to think that somebody else being a rapist/sexual abuser is their fault.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 20:04:53

The much older brother of a friend molested me a few times. Used to French kiss me. I was about 9. He was vile and used to hold my waist and push me into bushes. He used to smell bad.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 20:08:04

I did tell my Mother. My Father would have killed him in cold blood. We decided to not tell anybody, keep it quiet and keep away from him. Even now I know it was for the best.

CarrotsForRebeccaRabbit Fri 05-Oct-12 20:08:13

I've never had anything like this happen, ever.

I'm so sorry for all those who have sad

elspethmcgillicuddy Fri 05-Oct-12 20:10:44

I've never experienced any of this.

However, two of my great grandfathers sexually abused their grandchildren (one the boys, the other was girls). It was the generation above mine that was affected. I've never come across any type of sexual abuse myself.

CarrotsForRebeccaRabbit Fri 05-Oct-12 20:16:28

Sorry I just remebered I got a dirty phonecall when small, I thought it was one of my dads mate and was chatting to him, but didn't ask who it was as i was embrresed i didn't recognise his voice.

He started making 'funny soounds' and I asked him what he was doing and he sai 'Wanking his cock' hmm

he rang back a few times and my mum answered and went apeshit.

He had a witheld number of course.

It didn't affect me at all, I just thought it was weird.

Loonytoonie Fri 05-Oct-12 20:16:48

Thank you AllPastYears and Goldship. I've had a huge glug of wine since writing that.

My family were always really dysfunctional and I learnt at a young age to not complain to my mother about my brother. Didn't matter what he did, it's always me that copped the blame, so after a while, I said nothing. Plus, it's the usual thing - I felt somehow to blame, that I wouldn't be believed, or I'd even be 'accused' of instigating it. It'd be physical abuse as well as sexual. Once he took a kitchen knife and chased me all over the house, pretending to stab at me (he watched lots of horror films) and only stopped when he slashed at my forearm. I should have had stitches, but I didn't show anyone. Just taped it up. Scar still with me now.

I also remember standing in my bathroom with the door locked, and I'd stripped off my trousers. I was 9 at the time, and terrified that the puppy-fat swelling in my belly was actually baby. I was 9. I thought I was pregnant.

I have 3 girls. I will kill and I mean KILL any man who does anything like that to them.

I'm going to stop now. More wine. This is all too over-whelming for me.

CarrotsForRebeccaRabbit Fri 05-Oct-12 20:18:30

Oh and one of my dads mates was a taxi driver and asked my dad if i wanted a lift when i was going to my friends house (was about 13)

he drove past my friends house and wouldn't speak to me, it was dark outside.

he just drove round for ages staring ahead silently, then eventually dropped me at my friends

never said a word, and i never told my dad.

How did I forget that?

larks35 Fri 05-Oct-12 20:19:11

YANBU, having read through some posts it has actually brought back the memories.
I was about 14 when I was groped through the pocket of my own jacket on a jam-packed rush hour tube. Shame I always bit my nails as I tried to find out who it was by grabbing and squeezing the hand but I didn't see anyone around me react. I was surrounded by men and women in suits.
At 17, I slept round a friends house after a party and woke up to find a supposed friend of mine groping me.
At 20, me and my boyfriend were travelling in Turkey and accepted an offer to stay at someone's house. He plied us both with Raki and some dodgy tea, gave us each a sofabed. I woke up to him pawing all over me, I had to use some proper force to get him off me and my boyfriend awake.
At 24, I was staying at a friends place, I woke up to him fully ready to shag me. I got very upset and forceful to stop him. He has never acknowledged this happened. Claims he doesn't remember.

I've never been raped, but have just realised that I have suffered 4 sexual attacks in my life.

I studied sociology and remember a theory stating that all men are potential rapists. I didn't agree with this theory at the time, but may have to re-think that. Potential...

I have a DS and a DD, I hope I give them the emotional intellegence, confidence and skills to not fall into the category of attacker or victim.

As a society we obviously don't educate people effectively in sexual etiquette (not the word I want but can't think of another). This can't be done solely at school or home. Should other media be involved?

IceBergJam Fri 05-Oct-12 20:24:22

No idea what this was and probably my own fault but an older man came round to help me pratise for a play. I was late 20s so should have known better. Had had half a bottle of fizz. He took me out to get more alcohol after I practised the kiss with him. I got very drunk. No idea what happened. Something did because he came round and was scared I would tell the drama group. I couldnt get him to leave my house. He would not tell me what happened. I left the play .

Bumply Fri 05-Oct-12 20:29:09

I was flashed as a child.
I used to play dr and nurses type exploratory sexual stuff as a child with a boy I knew, which I felt fine with until we got to puberty at which point I put an end to it as I knew I was at risk of pregnancy. Many years later I learned that he did similar with his half sister and it went on to abuse in that case.
As a fat teen on holiday abroad I got unwanted attention - pressing against me in shops type stuff which disturbed me more because I felt unhappy with my shape and hated men finding me attractive when that was the last thing I felt.
Apart from that I've not had any untoward sexual attention.

bubalou Fri 05-Oct-12 20:29:10

It's so awful reading these that so many strong, beautiful, amazing women have had such awful experiences and now feel that they can't trust any men. sad

Is ridiculous that I consider myself 'lucky' to have not been sexually abused / molested / assaulted in some way! It shouldn't be lucky - we shouldn't feel fortunate - nobody should go through that! angry

So sorry for all of u that have been put through these awful ordeals.

nameuschangeus Fri 05-Oct-12 20:30:10

At school a group of boys (not always the same ones but maybe any one or two of a group of about 6 or 7) would systematically grab me (and I assume other girls) and 'feel me up'. I never told anyone as I was ashamed and kind of thought it was normal iyswim? Hideous as a recollect it. I used to just try to avoid being alone in the corridors.

Also been flashed out a number of times, a kid a year older than me who lived opposite locked us both in the downstairs loo in his house and sexually assaulted me. We were very young then. He might gave been about 11. He knew what he was doing though. sad I never went anywhere near him again and I can remember him bring extremely wary of me as we got older. Stupid git.

I think the thing is I actually thought it was normal. sad

perplexedpirate Fri 05-Oct-12 20:33:40

Yes, lots of times, on various levels, from being about 12.

It's just too fucking depressing. sadangry

DoingTheBestICan Fri 05-Oct-12 20:35:39

YANBU,
I have been followed home by a friend when I was 14,he scared me.
I have been propositioned by a much older man in a pub,he wouldn't leave me alone and I had to get the bouncer to escort me out.
I lost my virginity at 16 to a 39 yr old man,he was my boss and I definitely feel like I was groomed by him.
I have been followed into a pub toilet by my friends bf,he forced himself onto me and was seconds away from molesting me,luckily someone walked in and he got off me.
I have had a stranger try to get in my car whilst wanking,police arrested him and it turns out his friends little girl who was 6 told her teacher he had touched her but he got away with it as no one believed her. He was found guilty.
I have had a work colleague grab my breasts underneath my top,he apologised afterwards.

YUNoSaySomethingNice Fri 05-Oct-12 20:45:44

I have never, in 45+ years, had anything happen to me. Thank goodness.
Sorry for all those that have suffered.

fishnhips Fri 05-Oct-12 20:46:26

YANBU, I was abused by a neighbour as a child and just recently (I am in my thirties) a friend of mine had her crotch groped when we were out in a bar at 8pm. I think something like this has happened to most of the women I know.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Fri 05-Oct-12 20:46:44

Apart from what happened when i was a young child (which i won't be sharing), I've been exposed to in the street by an older boy, had my arse groped walking down the road by a man walking in the opposite direction (in an area where this seemed to happen a lot! not sure if it was cultural as the men in that area had no respect for women's right to not be groped and shouted smutty things at!?), saw a man in the next car at traffic lights wanking (wanking and driving!), been taken advantage of in a drunken state a couple of times when underage by much older men, been groomed when 14/15, . . .

That's all i can remember right now.

MaBaya Fri 05-Oct-12 20:48:26

I can also add to my earlier list. I have been kerb crawled LOADS. Very frightening. Have been followed by men a few times and had to run into shops or leg it to busier areas with my heart absolutely pounding.

My first sexual experience was with an older man. I was under age. Looking back he made me do lots of things I wasnt at all comfortable with, although I never used the word 'no'.

I was sexually harrassed by two male colleagues in the same bloody workpace, both of whom would grope me and try to kiss me when ever we were alone. I was very young - cant believe I didnt complain!

ilovetermtime Fri 05-Oct-12 20:53:47

Loads of times, ranging in severity. YANBU.

hoops997 Fri 05-Oct-12 20:56:55

I'm another one that has never experienced any abuse, unwanted contact or anything like that.

I find it very worrying that so many mnetters have experience it sad

fuckadoodlepoopoo Fri 05-Oct-12 20:57:41

. . . Also, followed down the road by a bloke shouting dirty stuff who didn't leave until i shouted abusively at him very very loudly!, followed from a train station by one guy who was saying stuff, shook him off and almost immediately another guy saw me coming and jumped in a bush . . . Im guessing to jump out when i approached but instead i crossed the road and jumped on a bus. The second wasn't sexual but made me extremely scared, as did the first and i do wonder what would have happened if they had got hold of me.

. . . they were all in the same area as mentioned in my last post! Bloody weirdo central!

TerrorNotSoFrightened Fri 05-Oct-12 21:01:39

Yes, at the ages of 14, 19 & 24.

The last one, I pressed charges, he was found guilty of lewd and libidinous behaviour and went down for a year, probably only served 4 months or something though, but I was so pleased he got a custodial sentence.

Most women I know have had something happen in wildly varying degrees.

KitCat26 Fri 05-Oct-12 21:06:04

I haven't suffered any sexual abuse, but most of my friends and family and I have experienced at least one unwanted sexual experience each.

Personally I have experienced being followed and witnessed a guy wanking in a van outside a primary school as a 15 year old. Told the police but didn't get his reg. no sadly. Also had the odd grope on a night out as a teen/twenty something.

Actually it does really worry me as we have 2 dds.

FootLikeATractionEngine Fri 05-Oct-12 21:14:22

I think that it very much depends on the spaces you live your life in and with whom. I had an interesting conversation with my Mum about this quite recently. Our lives have been very different and our experiences have been too. The environments that we spent our time in, both at the same age and currently, mean that she has been, and is, less likely to encounter this behaviour, although it is not a conscious act on either of our parts.

She has spent the vast majority of her adult (from, say 20) in spaces that were either female-dominated, child-orientated, or male-chaperoned. The only times she is on her own in the public sphere on her own is daytime town-centre or the occasional long distance travel from station/airport A to station/airport B. Whereas, I have spent the bulk of my life doing my own thing for the majority of my daily life, partly out of necessity and partly out of choice. Of course, out of the two of us, I am the one who has had the most unwelcome interfaces with men. Because those men who behave in this way have had more opportunity to do so with me.

OP, I entirely understand where you are coming from. I valiantly persevere with the notion that most men are respectful, when the evidence is not massively overwhelming.

SlanketySlank Fri 05-Oct-12 21:19:59

YANBU happened to me and one of my sisters. I just about survived 10 years of it. I'll end up oversharing if I give any more detail.

GhouliaYelps Fri 05-Oct-12 21:20:44

Molested by a family friend aged 13, BIL groped and restrained Me at 9, a Dr serious indecent assault at 23, a masseur on a beach indecent assault at 23 in full daylight, forced sex at 18.

None reported. Just listed them for the first time here .

It must be me sad

geegee888 Fri 05-Oct-12 21:22:36

I was grabbed by a flasher when I was a student and he tried to drag me down a narrow dark lane. I got free. Otherwise, its just verbal abuse of a sexual nature, on a relatively frequent basis.

I often think if it was racist, rather than sexist, the verbal abuse itself would be a crime that was taken seriously.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 21:24:30

FootLike I get what you are saying, but - Some people have unwelcome touching from family members and family friends from a young age. Not a lot they can do about those spaces they live their life in or with whom.

It's really sad and horrible the way that the dice are thrown.

IamMummyhearmeROAR Fri 05-Oct-12 21:25:32

I was flashed at regularly in the 80s at about 14 as I walked home from school with friends. They all saw him too but we never mentioned it to eachother. The idiot stood naked in his bedroom and used a mirror to reflect the sun on us to catch our attention. He lived in my street and was married with 2 kids. Never mentioned it to anyone.

Very scary incident on a school trip abroad. We stayed in a hostel and a friend came tearing back to our room wrapped only in a towel. She'd been disturbed in the shower by a middle aged man who then chased her down the corridor. We locked our door and he tried to batter it down. We screamed for our teacher out the window. The teacher approached the man and apologised for our behaviour.

drjohnsonscat Fri 05-Oct-12 21:28:29

YANBU. Childhood abuse (dodgy "uncle"). Assault by a stranger when I was about 21. Several, obscene phone calls, flashers. Unpleasant thing I can't quite call "date rape" in my 20s

Much worse when I lived in France. Was groped almost daily. Literally.

I think most men have no idea that this is normal for women. This is the experience of every woman I know.

BegoniaBampot Fri 05-Oct-12 21:28:31

On Question Time last night someone challenged Janet Street Porter about not revealing the rumours she had heard about JS years ago. Janet said that no one listened to to women back then and he was too powerful. She then told how when she was 10 her mum took her to the hairdressers and left her there to run an errand. Janet then told her mum later that the hairdresser had molested her and her mums reaction was to hit her.

as I said earlier I have had many what I would call lower level assaults like the groping etc and a few very lucky escapes. my MIL told me that when she was 10 or 11 and walking home from school, two older men or boys raped her while her friend was able to run off. She told her parents but it was all just hushed up for the best. She has been in and out of mental institutions and always has suffer from severe depression. My mum told how she and her friend when they were little were trapped in a ladies loo with a local man, my mum managed to run off but her friend wasn't so lucky. My mum was also groped by my uncle when she was heavily pregnant. The same uncle asked my sister to go into the woods with him when she was a teenager (he didn't recognise her as his niece).

I was quite annoyed at an earlier poster scoffing that this was any way the norm and that Mn is obviously 'skewed' to show more assault or abuse than really happens. Then some posters say nothing had happened to them other than some groping or flashing etc - do they not realise that this is sexual assault, maybe not the worst but they are adding to the picture.

MoomieAndFreddie Fri 05-Oct-12 21:33:05

OMG i have just remembered another one

I was at Reading festival and I was sat on my then boyfriends shoulders watching the band. I was 22 and pretty with long bleached blonde hair - not that the way I looked was relevant but I felt like my looks had caused it at the time.

anyway I . was wearing just a bikini top and jeans and someone pulled me off his shoulders and groped me, and ripped off my bikini top, it all happened so fast, and people around me were laughing sad i remember covering my boobs and seeing a man in a red t shirt running away through the crowd, I was screaming and crying for someone to stop him, and no one did, my boyfriend chased him but he got away. i was stood there sobbing while my friend wrapped her jumper round me to cover me up. And people were just stood there sniggering into their hands or at best, looking shocked, and all I can think of was, why didn't anyone stop him ffs!! many were women, god, if i had have seen that happen to another female I would have fucking said something.

It was 10 years ago now, and I still feel sick when I think about it, I have tears in my eyes now. I was a sunny, happy girl until then but I became very, very depressed afterwards. I had this like, anger and mistrust inside me, of everyone. and I cut my hair and dyed it brown, stopped wearing girly clothes, and stopped going out, I wanted to become invisible, I ended up signed off from work with stress and depression. I am not sure I have ever fully got over it tbh. This may sound dramatic but its how it affected me.

BegoniaBampot Fri 05-Oct-12 21:33:14

Oh and the local man who raped or molested my mum's friend - many knew but nothing was done as his mum was a nice old lady and no one wanted to distress her. My mum also said it was common when they were young and in the cinema for men to come and sit with them and give them sweets for touching them or whatever. I still find it hard to believe that some women have had absolutely no unwanted attention or even mild assaults. Those who keep saying it hasn't happened to their family and friends as well - how the hell do you know?

YouSmegHead Fri 05-Oct-12 21:35:09

I feel lucky to say the worst I have encountered is random touching when walking through a nightcub

FootLikeATractionEngine Fri 05-Oct-12 21:36:08

LineRunner - I actually deleted a clumsy para about that. I think I was responding to the "no, not me" posters. Please don't think I was victim-blaming in any way, because that is as far away from my stance as is possible. I was simply musing with my mum about luck and circumstance.

I do not understand the widespread belief among a seemingly large minority (?) of men that women's space and bodies are fair game for them to invade with words or actions. Who the fuck do they think they are?

PogoBob Fri 05-Oct-12 21:37:02

I'm lucky that I have never experienced anything like this. I can't say why I've been this lucky but I do think it is more common then it should be.

Blistory Fri 05-Oct-12 21:40:34

Why do those who haven't experienced this kid of thing consider yourselves lucky ? Surely your experiences should be normal ?

MadBusLady Fri 05-Oct-12 21:42:14

Begonia, please. I am not doubting your experience. Do me the courtesy of not doubting mine. Nothing has ever happened to me like this. Not even "just some groping or flashing". Nothing. Really. My experience should be the normal one, I don't think we get anywhere by denying anybody has it at all!

FootLikeATractionEngine Fri 05-Oct-12 21:42:30

My heart goes out to all of you who have had these experiences at the hands of these men (and some women).

It makes me so angry. In the quest to believe that we are all equal now, we seem to have forgotten that our opportunities to occupy this world and avail ourselves of all that is good in it are curtailed by others, in ways that are rarely spoken about. And that is why, despite masses of reasons to think otherwise, I believe MN is a great space. I hear you all.

Another YANBU here sad

Within my female friendship group I would say 70% of us have experienced some sort of sexual abuse, from date rape and subsequent kidnapping, to the 'usual' unwanted groping/flashing/being rubbed up against on public transport.

I hope and pray that I will bring up my 2 boys to not only never do this sort of thing, but to denounce it if they ever see it happen.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 05-Oct-12 21:46:48

Yanbu. I wish I didn't have any stories to add, but...

Obscene phone calls - by someone who knew when I was alone in the house, and knew a lot about me. I was genuinely afraid - sometimes he'd just say something obscene and I'd hang up. Other times he'd say 'as you're on your own tonight I thought I'd come over and keep you company'.

Attempted rape at University by my then-boyfriend's friend. Would have been rape if my bf hadn't come in.

Raped by another bf, I lived with, many times in my sleep. I'd wake up and he's just be having sex with me. Until I read MN I hadn't ever even thought of it as rape - but how did I consent if I was asleep?

And of course the 'low level' sexual assaults - arse slapped by a customer in the shop I worked at. Boobs grabbed, arse grabbed etc.

It's not ALL men - my dh is definitely one of the good 'uns. But I think the men who DO think it's ok to abuse women this way abuse many, many women in their lifetime.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 21:47:19

FootLike thanks for your post and yes I agree MN is a great space to be heard. Sometimes I feel it is the only place to be heard.

FreudiansGoldSlipper Fri 05-Oct-12 21:49:06

Moomie is does not sound dramatic at all what happened to you was horrible who has the right to do that to you. Its how you feel about what happened and how it made you feel that is important to deal with

I just feel as women we have had to put up and shut up for so long it makes me really angry and sad and if we do complain it is often met with ah well some men are just pervy

A boy at school flashed at us a few times, we were 12/13 he was much older looking than most in our year. Even before that there was something menacing about his behaviour. When he was 11 the teacher caught him with some porno magazines his father was called up to school our teacher was so angry and his father said so what he had given them to him. I often wonder what sort of man has he grown up to be

cerealqueen Fri 05-Oct-12 21:49:16

Only one incident, having sex with BF and he tried to have anal sex with me without my consent. Feeling fortunate that this was the only incident
and sorry for what everybody else has been through and angry that it is so prevalent.

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 21:49:45

Blistory because this is a very charged subject, and it is so, so, so easy to come across as victim-blaming otherwise. I sat typing and then backspacing for ages, because every time it sounds as if I was blaming other women. So I used "lucky".

TooMuchRain Fri 05-Oct-12 21:50:14

That is happens at all is too much but I think 'most' is (thankfully) too strong

SmellsLikeTeenStrop Fri 05-Oct-12 21:51:34

My brother used to ''accidentally'' brush his hand across my breasts but over time he got more confident and went to actually grabbing them. He also used to push me on to the ground and put his foot on my vagina, sometimes even penetrating me with his toe.

I went to my parents and told them and they spoke to him but seemed to accept his story that it was all accidental. I'd never felt so let down by them. It did make my brother stop though. I was about 12/13, brother would have been 15.

I hadn't thought about this in years, I feel all icky now.

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 21:54:31

In some ways, MN is skewed: towards women seeing reality and not accepting that it's our fault for being sexually assaulted!

You'll get a much higher proportion of women feeling able to share their experiences on this site, unlike other sites.

YANBU really but its more likely to be a lot than most.. i hope..

I don't know why its not reported, but going from my own experience, i think most of us internalise it, not wishing to upset our parents, spouse, ect. The feeling of shame sometimes of admitting that sometimes the 'abuse' doesn't feel that bad, sometimes even pleasurable (i know i'm sticking my neck out here) the threats made by the abuser, the attention is sometimes nice, the grooming, if you come from a family that doesn't give a hoot about you, you feel unloved.
You may feel like you won't be believed, that the old 'because i'm an adult and you're a child' thing. Adults, when you're little, seem to collude. Talk over you, get on well, and children are a nuisance, a pest to be left with a babysitter..

The other thing my mum used to say to me is 'I've got eyes in the back of my head' I used to look at her in wonderment trying to work out how she knew i'd had the last bit of chocolate, but later on it was 'does she know i've been abused..does she care..does she think i'm a horrible person' by the way she treated me sometimes i guess i thought as a child the answer must be yes.

Its all very complex, everyone has their own reasons for not coming forward and naming an abuser. As you get older you just protect your own children, hope it doesn't happen to them, you wouldn't discuss what had happened to you because it's locked away in the 'too painful to deal with' box, at the back of your mind. If you do, and you're like me (spoke to ExP about it and he asked 'were you provocatively dressed/acting in a certain way/flirting?' ) shock and after that i hid it back away.. then he used it against me in an argument.. i was a 'slag' who had slept with a married man at the age of 12 sad

I feel so sorry for women, and men, living with this and thank god for anonymity on here which enables a lot of them to talk about what has happened to them in a relatively safe and supportive environment.

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 21:57:50

Bit got left off.

"So I don't think this thread demonstrates a skewed sample of assault incidences. I think it's representative of women in Britain."

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 05-Oct-12 22:00:07

Plus, my dh had his crotch grabbed by man in a nightclub.

Plus my mum. When she was 11 my grandma (wonderful but scatty) was late picking her up from school, so she started to walk home. This was the late 50's. A man stopped his van, and took her into some bushes, and made her lie down with him and hold his penis. She says she doesn't know how she escaped, but she did and carried on walking home, where my grandma met her in the car. She considers herself lucky to be alive.

She was also flashed at whilst walking the dog with my baby sister.

She also worked in an office where the manager sexually harrassed all the women - arse slapping etc. It was all considered a joke apparently.

A friend of mine was sexually assaulted in the supermarket recently. She's in her 40's and was carrying her toddler at the time sad

Blistory Fri 05-Oct-12 22:00:26

So what needs to be done then because it has to change ?

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 22:00:39

Too true. This represents woman in Britain, who finally are not trapped in the unspeaking zone.

FootLikeATractionEngine Fri 05-Oct-12 22:01:09

I agree, TheBigJessie. I also think that there has been a lot of soul searching over many threads that means that actually naming THAT incident as bang out of order is more likely by posters on here, than elsewhere. I find the "that's men for you" attitude elsewhere on the net and irl deeply distasteful.

Anyway, I reckon 5 years of legal tasers for women might just teach a lesson that is long overdue. Unless anyone's got any other ideas. Because not-my-nigel and not-my-little-nigel head in the sand stuff has not got us very far. I don't reckon these incidents are all in the distant past.

FreudiansGoldSlipper Fri 05-Oct-12 22:08:53

I also recently realised that I got a lot more of this threatening behaviour towards me when I was younger, I looked young I was also less confident and I think these men sensed that and my vulnerability. The more confident I became the less harassment I got

BegoniaBampot Fri 05-Oct-12 22:10:08

i'd love to see every low level assault like the arse slapping and groping, the lewd comments challenged. Could you imagine if every child or woman turned and loudly shouted out what had just happened like in the work place, the street, the bus, the supermarket and made that person responsible, especially in public. guess it would be a start. We need to get women and children shouting out and getting angry and confident.

fluffyraggies Fri 05-Oct-12 22:12:52

I've had something happen. But i don't want to write about it. If i write about it it will make it real sad

So - another name to the list.

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 22:13:10

I don't know. I am certain that children need to feel entitled to personal space, but that's my personal experiences. If a bloke started frotting himself against me now in a queue, I would, without question, react. But it took years of being a teenage girl who didn't want to make a fuss to get here. Same for lots of us, I think.

I want our daughters to feel goddamn entitled to respect from childhood. Not from their twenties or early-forties!

Blistory Fri 05-Oct-12 22:14:59

Why is the onus on the women to solve it ? Shouldn't we asking men to solve this ? I don't want to have to pick some guys hand off my ass and hold it up to embarrass him and draw attention to myself. I want him not to touch my ass in the first place.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 22:18:09

It would be nice to see a campaign focused on men, 'Bring your sons up to respect women and girls. Thank you.'

bushymcbush Fri 05-Oct-12 22:19:20

I was just saying to my DH yesterday that every one of my female friends have encountered some kind of sexual assault. He was shocked and slightly disbelieving I think. Weirdly, he had forgotten (but remembered when I reminded him) about one occassion when I was groped in the street by a stranger whilst with my DH - who ran after the bloke and confronted him but he of course denied it.

I was groomed from age 12 by a 18 year old neighbour who I never said no to but was never comfortable with what we were doing. He had sex with me when I was 14. I only ever did anything with him to please him not because I wanted to do them myself.

I had to fight off an older boy I had only just met in a friend's house when we were left alone for a few minutes. He tried to force himself on me, and called me names when I managed to get away. I was 13.

I have been groped in the street twice. Also been flashed/wanked at in a park on a weekend morning - it was aimed at me and my friend (in our twenties at the time) but there were young children around who could see. Had abusive phone calls too.

That's all I can think of for now. And I reckon I've got off pretty lightly compared to some.

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 22:20:05

We believe you fluffy .

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 22:22:18

I agree Linerunner but some people abuse regatdless of how their parents/guardians etc have guided them.

thebody Fri 05-Oct-12 22:23:39

Yes agree totally op. I was touched as a child by the school taxi driver and basically raped by a boyfriend at 17.

Never reported. Also been lunged at and groped.

My dds have been brought up very differently suffice to say.

They are extremely kick ass and have been bolstered self esteem wise by their older brothers to take no shit from lads.

Fingers crossed, very good post but truly sad not shocking.

fluffyraggies Fri 05-Oct-12 22:24:08

Thank you soul. It means allot.

thebody Fri 05-Oct-12 22:25:16

TheBigjessie, yes yes excellent post..

thebody Fri 05-Oct-12 22:26:06

Fluffy, just hugs xx

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 22:26:49

I know, Sole, I do agree; but I'd like to see some societal onus placed on men and boys.

deleted203 Fri 05-Oct-12 22:28:24

OMG I am stunned (and sorry) by all this. I have never, ever been the victim of any kind of sexual assault, and I don't actually know anyone who has. Or at least none of my friends or acquaintances has ever told me. I am shattered to learn it is so common.

I've never suffered any sexual abuse, I would like to consider it 'normal' but feel more like I've been 'lucky'. I was certainly never particularly careful when I was younger, I can think of occasions when I went to a hotel room with a bloke and then changed my mind and left, got dodgy lifts, walked home late at night by myself. So many other people on this thread who've been in similar situations which have ended badly. sad

I think this thread is relatively representative, my close female friends who I've known for many years have mostly had something happen at some point. I'm guessing a lot of my other friends haven't escaped unscathed, we're just not close enough to have ever talked about it.

Lilithmoon Fri 05-Oct-12 22:29:58

I am sorry if this is awkwardly worded.
I can see a least half a dozen descriptions in this thread that have happened to me spanning about thirty years.
This thread is hugely important because we don't talk about these things and if we feel able, we should, even if only on this thread.
Please, please anyone who is wondering 'is it me' it is not you. The person who has done the terrible thing is 100% responsible.
sad angry shock sad

SoleSource Fri 05-Oct-12 22:30:14

Yes, zi agree Linerunner. Women are abusers too sometimes.

I had my arse felt once in a club and grabbed the guys hand, held it up in the air, and said, 'Anyone lost a hand? I just found it on my arse'

I wish i was always that brave i was so angry.. he proper dug his fingers in and sort of underneath

If a son of mine did that i would be livid

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 05-Oct-12 22:32:58

Linerunner, I like 'Bring your sons up to respect women and girls. Thank you'

I don't know how many times I have seen this type of behaviour dismissed because it is normal for 'red-blooded males'. This predatory behaviour must not be tolerated.

I'm also shocked most by how young some of the posters on here were when they had these awful experiences, plus how many were carried out by family members. Just shocked.

YANBU

It would be nice to see a campaign focused on men, 'Bring your sons up to respect women and girls. Thank you.' Yes it most certainly would. They need to see every woman as their mum, sister or daughter, and how they would feel if a certain thing was happening to them.

katykuns Fri 05-Oct-12 22:36:13

I feel physically sick with anger that this such terrible things have happened to people on this thread... I literally want to get a knife from the kitchen drawer and get revenge on all of them. I don't even know any of you on here, but I am so angry!

I was raped by my exH... only told my DP, who was horrified... gradually told more people. The most unfortunate thing is that some have downplayed what I went through because he was my Husband. He was in the middle of intercourse, which he had pressured me into... when I cried and tried to stop him, he carried on enough to 'finish'. It had been 2 months since I had my DD1, my stitches weren't healed and I was very sore. Thankfully, I felt so disgusted by him, I didn't have sex with really after that. The issues with tensing up before intercourse with my lovely DP carried on for a long time.. I expected pain sad

I also had a very strange experience with my Sister's now 'D'H. I was 14. He kept trying to groom me, saying I was beautiful. Showing A LOT of interest in my very innocent relationship with a 'boyfriend' then. He ended up trying to propose an arrangement where we would have a threesome with my sister. I remember being so scared I wanted to vomit. He was 17, and lived with us for about 6 months. My sister had a brief escape a few years back, ended up with someone else even worse, and ended up back with him. She has also been raped by someone in primary school in year 6, by a boy a year older.

Thinking I am not being unreasonable to not let my DD's ever leave the house and stay with me at all times, I will die if they ever have to go through anything that women on this thread have described.

bushymcbush Fri 05-Oct-12 22:37:13

thebody could you please elaborate on how you have brought your dd's up differently? I have two tiny dd's and I am determined to do everything I can to teach them how to protect themselves.

FootLikeATractionEngine Fri 05-Oct-12 22:37:32

I agree that the "men, don't do that" is a message that should be out there. But then, the "not my nigel/mini nigel"s pipe up.

Until it is accepted that it MIGHT be/have been their Nigel/mini Nigel, the loudest voices against that kind of campaign will be women. Men who are not aggressors tend not to get too het up about it.

The biggest conspiracy of silence is around violence and sexual aggression against women. I often imagine what life would be like to be my 6', well-built, confident and world-occupying (not in a bad way) male friends. Their experience of life is so very different from mine.

I'm just shocked by the groping ones (i know others are worse) but the fact is that they are mostly 'violent' in nature, nothing that could be seen as 'flirting or cheeky' not that anyone has any right to touch you if you don't want to be, but from seeing mens faces when they are groping women they have a kind of 'twisted' look on their face.. hope i'm making sense.. like they hate us and want to hurt us or do more than what they're doing..

thebody Fri 05-Oct-12 22:39:41

Love the sound if that campaign aimed at boys.

Always tried to instill in my boys a respect for all women.

Just hope good enough.

Blistory Fri 05-Oct-12 22:41:17

Bushy, you can't protect them unless we educate boys differently. I was brought up to take no shit but that doesn't matter when you're in a situation that starts with disbelief, shock, fright and impotent anger. The only way to stop our daughters from being in those situations is to teach boys that they don't do it.

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 22:44:18

I think one of the most important things about this thread is that we must, as people, consider accusations against family members. It doesn't matter whether it's a brother, son, or nephew, or husband. Listen to her.

All this awful things that were dismissed within families. I feel awful for you all.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 22:52:01

That's why I would say, focus on the new generation of fathers, to believe.

Otherwise it's always the job of women, girls and boys to stop the rot.

notmyproblem Fri 05-Oct-12 22:52:30

Men have different problems. Nearly every man I know has had to defend himself against assaults from other men (not sexual generally though), and most have come off rather worse for it.

But to be back on topic, I really feel sad and angry to read all the experiences in this thread. My heart goes out to those who have gone through such terrible things. I have a DD and wonder on a daily basis how I can keep something like that happening to her. Because while I would say I've not had any really bad experiences, certainly I've been in situations where I've had unwanted attention.

To paraphrase something I heard on the news today, I think it's very important that ALL children learn at a reasonable age (say 9 or 10?) what consent means, what no means, and how to both SAY it and HEAR it. I know many parents would be up in arms at schools daring to teach this to kids so young, but it needs to be part of everyday socialisation that unwanted touching, coercion and sexual assault of any kind is not acceptable. Why can't we have a campaign about this, the way we do about "stranger danger" and the like?

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 22:59:03

notmyproblem definitely agree about that. Children need to be taught as earlty as possible that sexual assault is not acceptable. Child A needs to know they are in the wrong. Child B needs to know they are justified in objecting. None of this "it's just a joke" bollocks.

Badvoc Fri 05-Oct-12 23:00:11

It's all of it isn't it?
The awful sexual abusers, the groping, the flashing...
As a young girl and teen I lost count of the amount of times I was just walking down the street minding my own business and male drivers (some older than my dad) would shout awful things at me, sometimes they would slow the car/van down and ask me where i was going/where I lived...
I was followed home on 2 occasions.
I was terrified.
I have been flashed.
I have had men in pubs and clubs grope me, rub themselves against me, try and kiss me...
So fucking depressing.
These are all some mothers son.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 23:01:23

I wonder if it's because all stuff like unwanted touching and assaults tend to be dealt with through schools' PSHE lessons that it all ends up feeling somehow peripheral and within the remit yet again of women (mothers) and boys and girls to deal with.

Men should be at the heart of stopping it. By themselves, to themselves, about themselves. Their own families. Their own lives.

I don't want my son to be attacked in a nightclub when he's 20 any more than I want my daughter ever to be.

I am sick of the violence and the fear of the violence, and the fear that we all have of sexual assault on our younger family members; of the blame game; of the manipulation of shame.

Big sigh.

BegoniaBampot Fri 05-Oct-12 23:01:37

I do worry about how widespread and easy it is to access hardcore porn these days. Remember reading that many young people first access this hardcore porn from about the age of 10 or 11. This is so scary, what kind of effect will this have on these young minds.

Badvoc Fri 05-Oct-12 23:04:36

I am 40 next week and I think my generation was the last one before porn became free and widespread on the Internet.
The closest I got to porn was watching "the camomile lawn" on dh 4!!

ithinkimightbegoingmad Fri 05-Oct-12 23:04:57

Strangers;
I was wanked over when i fell asleep on a beach; was woken by his grunting and managed to avoid getting most of his cum on me. I didn't report it to the police. i told the boy I was seeing at the time and the man was 'sorted out' by some of the locals (working abroad at the time)

On a crowded bus had a man masturbating himself, rubbing against my shoulder

People I should have been able to trust;
whilst a teenager; 2 over enthusiastic 'boyfriends' who didn't want to accept 'no'. I managed to avoid rape but 1 fingered me so hard I was bleeding and bruised

Raped by an ex-boyfriend aged 18, whilst both staying at a mutual friends house

I have only recently, in my 40s, began to talk about any of this. I have come to realise it has had a massive impact on my life. Alot of women I know have been raped.

Im glad you started this thread OP; I have on a number of occassions in the past recounted my experiences on this board; and from reactions felt as if people thought it must just be the 'people i know' IYSWIM

ThreeWheelsGood Fri 05-Oct-12 23:06:21

I wish I'd been brought up to know how to support friends who've been through this.. Maybe it should be taught at school.

Personally, thankfully, I've experienced nothing major of note, but I can remember as a teenager a friend told us she was date raped while stoned, and another friend woke to find our mutual male friend's hand in her pants. the latter really upset her, changed her. But we just didn't know what to say or do, just swept it under the carpet, treated it as something private not too be brought up again. Sigh.

Badvoc Fri 05-Oct-12 23:07:58

I still can't bring myself to use the word.
But yes.
My first boyfriend.
I said no.
He carried on.
No one knows.

MummysHappyPills Fri 05-Oct-12 23:08:15

I have. Was coerced into sex by a man much older than me when I was 15. Took me to a place where I didn't know where I was and said he would not take me home until I had sex with him. Despite saying no 1000 times, eventually I let him. I felt disgusted with myself, and he hounded me for months after, basically pretending to be my boyfriend, I think in an effort to stop me saying anything.

I have had at least 6 experiences of being sexually abused (including one by a doctor who I now know has gone on to be a obs & gynae consultant angry).

If you knew me you wouldn't know that I'd had these experiences; I don't tend to talk about them. I doubt very much that I'm in the minority though.

My mother was also sexually assaulted by a health professional shock She never said anything because she was too embarrassed sad.

MummysHappyPills Fri 05-Oct-12 23:10:54

And I also think it had a massive impact on my life. I blamed myself and have had major issues with self esteem, despite previously being a very happy and well adjusted child from a happy family.

HoopDePoop Fri 05-Oct-12 23:12:19

YANBU sad

And do you know what the worst thing is? It always felt like my fault . Losing my virginity at 14 when I repeatedly said no? If anyone on here posted that, I'd tell them it was rape. And that is just one example. Even at 27, when my boss acted beyond inappropriately, I didn't feel able to tell my fiancé because I thought he'd think I was attention seeking, or flirting, or making it up.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 05-Oct-12 23:15:30

I have told very few people about my experiences - my close friends at uni knew about the attempted rape.

Only dh knows about my ex.

I'm a happy, confident person - people that know me nowadays (even close friends) don't know.

It's good that I can share it here.

MrsTwinks Fri 05-Oct-12 23:15:32

notmyproblem the risk with educating young kids is IMO it will never fully protect them without introducing them (possibly too) early to things that are overly sexual.

I was abused by a male relative who was like a brother to me, abuse that stopped short of actual rape. At 10/11, I was fully aware of sex, but what was done to me wasn't equated in my head as sex until I was older. In hindsight the intention may have been to eventually groom to that point, and yes that I would have known as wrong.

of people I know who have been assulted, none were attacked by a stranger. That, to me, is sad. Growing up they only taught us about "stranger danger", nothing ever about anyone else.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 23:15:35

The whole 'hush' 'shame' 'fuss' crap is like a disease we don't even know we've got.

procrastinor Fri 05-Oct-12 23:18:50

I was initially going to say not me but then remembered all the "usual" types of sexual assault that happened when used to go out clubbing. Including one memorable occasion where I was stood against a wall on a step with my knee against this guys chest just yelling no at him. Took two very burly guys to step up to him and point out that I'd said no and meant it (my heroes!).

I'm sad that the idea that being groped up in a club to a lot of us doesn't 'count' as its viewed as just part and parcel of going out.

Thing3ReallyWantsChocolate Fri 05-Oct-12 23:19:43

When I was 18 I went back to the house of a man quite a lot older than me and we were doing stuff when I said it was starting to hurt. He told me that he had got that far and wasn't going to stop now and carried on.

I went back to a hotel with a service man after a night out and was very drunk. I told him that I wasn't going to have sex but I must have passed out when I got there as I woke up the next morning and could feel we had but couldn't remember. I had sex with him again as I figured I already had so what was the point saying no.

I put myself into some very very stupid situations when I was younger, most of the time I was lucky but a couple of times things didn't go well. I have never told anybody those stories as I have always thought they were my own fault.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Fri 05-Oct-12 23:23:22

Meant to add I also blamed myself for the attempted rape at the time. I thought it must be my fault, that I must have done something wrong - I know now I did nothing wrong. This 'friend' thought that because I was shagging his mate, I must be up for it with anyone - and therefore he was free to barge into my room (Uni Hall of residence) and take what he wanted.

I never reported it and even made excuses for him! Makes me really fucking mad now.

FootLikeATractionEngine Fri 05-Oct-12 23:23:22

All of you who have never told - thank you for honouring this thread with your story. I hear you and I believe you.

And it reminds me that just because some people I know have never said to me that this stuff has happened to them does not mean that it hasn't happened.

joanofarchitrave Fri 05-Oct-12 23:23:52

I remember in my later teens when a story about rape came on the news, my mother would always in a quite matter-of-fact way say 'what did they expect, she went to his room, she was hitchhiking, in my day we would have said they were asking for it, they were....' on and on and on.

Don't say that to your daughters. Or your sons. If someone is in your house, they have not become un-people.

fuckwittery Fri 05-Oct-12 23:29:23

I was 12 and at clarinet camp, much older boy took a fancy to me kept pulling me off into corners and got me in a room took my knickers off and did stuff to me (not full sex) and got me to do stuff to him. I had NO IDEA and was incapable of saying no to him, he was so persistent.

17, having driving lessons. My instructor kept squeezing my thigh to tell me to use the clutch or brake or whatever, and would reach over and "help" me steer whilst brushing my breast. In a 2 hour lesson he would stop every time to use the loo, be ages in there and it was years after I realised he was probably wanking.

BegoniaBampot Fri 05-Oct-12 23:33:57

It is a conspiracy of silence. When my MIL told me quitely and out of the blue one day that she had been raped by two men/boys as a young girl, I asked her if she wanted me to tell the rest of the family, her husband and her children, she said no 'she didn't want to upset them'. So I've never been able to tell my husband what happened to his mum and why it might be one of the reasons she has been depressed and very ill for much of her life, that was years ago. I doubt I ever tell him.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 23:36:32

My fucking granny, my grandad, my mother, all the lot of them were victim-blamers of the Highest Order Of Victim Blaming.

My dad's side of the family are in the Jimmy Savile fan club.

My ExH's family think all women who get sexually assaulted shouldn't have been out, but despise cultures whom they perceive as somehow keeping woman in.

Included in the enablers of this madness are the fathers and the grandfathers who say shit like 'Oh if it happened to you I'd get a gun and go to jail for you', which they would never do of course and which empty hyperbole just makes girls and woman keep quiet out of triple-guilt.

joanofarchitrave Fri 05-Oct-12 23:37:26

I read a book about people with dementia (male and female) - it said if they become aggressive during personal care it's always possible it's because they associate it with past sexual abuse. The book described several case histories.

Asamumnonsense Fri 05-Oct-12 23:37:39

I was sexually abused by one of my uncles. My sister by another and 2 cousins have also been abused by uncles. The sad thing is that we talked about it and one cousin had the guts to mention it to the family but it was brushed under the carpets...so we decided that nothing would happen and I grew up, left the country and I haven't seen that side of the family for 20 years and I know I will never see them again

baskingseals Fri 05-Oct-12 23:37:43

op YANBU i have often thought this too, but agree it is not something you chat about even with close friends.

i think about my beautiful 10 yo dd and a cold hand grips my heart.

thenightsky Fri 05-Oct-12 23:40:57

YANBU OP

Almost every afternoon in the taxi on the way home from school. I had to squeeze in the back with 3 lads. I fought them all the way of the 15 min journey. I got penetrated with finger and thumbs most school days sad

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 23:42:31

Oh godlets, I hate "I'd smash his head in" statements. It's a wonderful way to make sure an assaulted girl/boy feel its their duty to protect their family by keeping silent. It's hard enough for people to report it, without fearing they'll be responsible for their wannabe-vigilante family members being arrested.

LineRunner Fri 05-Oct-12 23:45:24

BigJessie, you've understood it exactly.

whistlestopcafe Fri 05-Oct-12 23:52:20

I said no but he didn't stop. We were both young and he was very damaged. I don't feel any bitterness towards him. I feel angry at myself for not being stronger.

Second occasion I was drunk and literally had to fight him off and I succeeded. Again I feel angry at myself for getting myself into this situation.

Asamumnonsense Fri 05-Oct-12 23:54:58

My hurt just sunk! I am reading this and thinking , if it happens to so many young girls, teenagers, women. How on earth do I prevent this happening to my 5 year old daughter?

Asamumnonsense Fri 05-Oct-12 23:55:15

meant my heart! sorry

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Oct-12 23:59:27

I think one of the worst bits is that you're right, it's hyperbole. You believe the macho posturing at the time, and later on, you realise that actually uncle Billy isn't such a hard nut as he made out to you as a child. You suffered in silence for nothing. <Angry at the world of enabling prattery our culture has developed>

LineRunner Sat 06-Oct-12 00:00:41

I talk to my DD. She's 16 now. Do the deconstruction game. How do certain people get away with doing bad things and promoting the opposite image? Who lets them do this, and how?

How does evil happen? They learn this at school if they can just connect it, about 'good' people doing nothing (or appearing to do nothing, or choreographing victims into declining attention.)

BegoniaBampot Sat 06-Oct-12 00:04:38

Maybe we should let our sons, daughters and anyone else read this thread.

EricNorthmansFangBanger Sat 06-Oct-12 00:05:05

YANBU.

Only my husband knows about what happened to me. I try not to think about it but more and more it creeps in and it's messing with my head. I'm currently pregnant with DC3, I have two daughters already. I despair sometimes and wonder what kind of world I've brought them into. I fear for them and hope that they'll never have to go through what I went through.

I was 9/10, it was a family friends son, he was 15..maybe 16. He was also abusing his sister. He made it seem very 'normal' and that this was what happened. Or like we were all playing a game. I really didn't know any better. All I knew was that I felt dirty. I remember a strong feeling that i had of disgust with myself when I saw him one day. I remember bits of what happened. I wish I didn't. I always thought it was my fault. I think I've blocked a lot of it out. I don't really want to remember what happened.

I'm so sorry that so many others have gone through sexual abuse. I don't think I will ever tell my parents or anyone else. I don't think I'd ever be able to bring myself to. This evening some friends started talking about Jimmy Saville and how they didn't understand why all these people were coming out now. We couldn't see eachother but we could hear eachother. I tried to explain why people wouldn't necessarily have come forward in the past, but I could feel my voice wavering and I couldn't talk about it. My husband was present in the conversation too. I ended up bursting into tears. They didn't hear me and still have no idea of what happened to me in my past. This is one of the reasons I couldnt bring myself to tell people and come forward. Some people just don't understand.

Sorry for going off on a tangent, feeling very sad at the moment sad

I am feeling sad but very lucky. The only thing to happen to me is a teenager grabbing at me is briefly as he believed cycled past. And now when i look back on my life i can see many times when i could have been pressured but i wasn't. There are good men out there too.

LineRunner Sat 06-Oct-12 00:10:02

It is a very sad and angry thing for lots of us.

I hope this thread is a safe place. I feel it is. The rage I would have felt otherwise directed inwards is here now. I am very grateful.

whistlestopcafe Sat 06-Oct-12 00:11:30

Oddly enough the most shocked I felt was when I was driving my little car and a white van man wound down his window and described what he wanted to do to me. This frightened me more than the other incidents. He was about my age at the time (early 20s). What sort of person does that?

BegoniaBampot Sat 06-Oct-12 00:12:58

Yes there are many good men and I was lucky to encounter the good ones generally. Put myself in quite a few situations where if they were creeps it could have been nasty and I probably would never have reported it. Luckily, the men I chose to trust respected my boundaries. The ones who didn't, generally were passing strangers - the gropers, the comments, the intimidation. A think that's why I consider myself lucky and able to shrug off the assaults.

katykuns Sat 06-Oct-12 00:14:13

Asamumnonsense - I feel exactly the same sad

Witco Sat 06-Oct-12 00:19:37

YANBU, I had 2 disturbing 'events' in my late teens. One at a party when I got drunk and went to bed to sober up. Woke up with a senior colleague doing inappropriate things to me & he couldn't understand why I would be upset! Another incident travelling on a long-distance train journey through Europe when I was unknowingly drugged & had a similar incident. Both very upsetting. Since then I have put on weight to make myself unattractive to the opposite sex and have been drinking to excess ever since. Lots of positive things in my life and I am a strong woman but I see myself as a survivor of this sort of shit.

Lepreporn Sat 06-Oct-12 00:32:54

Yanbu. I have never told anyone in real life this but when I was 20. I got v drunk at a friends house party and woke up with a guy having sex with me. I just left him carry on. Felt so ashamed and embarrassed for years. Blamed myself.
Happily married now with kids but I think about it sometimes and get upset. I would hate that to happen to my dds.

Bellhop Sat 06-Oct-12 00:42:22

This thread is so sad.

I wonder what makes some men (more than we might have thought) behave like this? Upbringing?
I'm scared even posting this as I've never told anyone and I feel it was my fault (that old chestnut but so true)
My friend and I suffered a lot together as young teenagers. We used to stay out all night and stay with people we met in pubs/clubs (aged 14 but we looked a lot older). Often we consented, I don't know why we did it, being wanted? Power over men? At least once I woke up and someone was having sex with me. I kept my eyes closed until it stopped. Other times stick in my mind.... I remember being stopped whilst walking home from somewhere and being offered money by this 30 year old ish man for a bj. I did it as I was skint... I was 14 ffs but it wasn't a big deal as I was totally de sensitised.
My friend died in her 20's following a miserable life of self destructive behaviour and violent partners.
I had a child very young and went the opposite way by marrying the nicest, most caring man I could wish for.

I was fucked up but I don't know why. I have a lovely family although my parents separated and my Dad left just before I entered my teens...

I can't think about it too much. I don't feel I was abused in a typical sense as I put myself in these situations but at the same time I know what these men did was wrong.

It affects me a lot and I'm over protective to the extreme. My mum was lovely but very naive and trusting so gave me a stupid amount of freedom.

PaintTheWholeWorldWithARainbow Sat 06-Oct-12 01:20:17

YANBU.

I was sexually abused when I was very young and it has pretty much ruined my life sad I reported it many years later and the case went to court. The pervert responsible received a paltry jail sentence which was not long enough IMO but I was glad that some sort of justice had been served.

I was raped by my ex-partner.

I have been followed home and flashed at. I also once had a man put his hand up my skirt in a nightclub; when I remonstrated he spat in my face.

I feel very angry and bitter about what's happened. To the outside world I appear happy and bubbly; no one sees the pain inside. I have had years of therapy and yet I am still not at peace with myself. I don't think I will ever be able to trust a man sad

Dryjuice25 Sat 06-Oct-12 02:19:49

This thread makes me weep for womankind

A victim too......

ithinkimightbegoingmad Sat 06-Oct-12 02:26:23

so here's a question then...are you going to tell your dds what happened to you?

i have been thinking about this lately....mine are still too young....

hr100 Sat 06-Oct-12 02:31:29

I have a few incidents that I have never talked about but if I am honest still eat me up 15 years later and I cant seem to get over them.

First of all my brother and I "experimented" when we were young but it happened one last time when I was 12 and he was 15. It never happened again after that but I always wondered if that was wrong? Were we too old then? I hate the thought of it, it makes me feel so disgusting now but at the time it didnt feel wrong.

Also when I was 14 I was groomed by a much older guy, in his late 30s. Until maybe 3 years ago I thought this was my fault, that I had come on to him but its only as I got older (in my 30s now) that I realised that he was grooming me and that he was in a postion of responsibility.

When I was about 15 I got very drunk and a guy a few years old made me give him oral sex, again at the time I thought it was ok as I was being grown up, only a few years later did it seem wrong.

I'm not going to give DD the gory details, she doesn't need them, she's been there herself sad But i am wary now and constantly reinforce with her she can tell me anything. If i had my time again i'd get her trained in self def so she could at least be confident of being able to protect herself physically if needs be.

DoIDare Sat 06-Oct-12 04:13:39

I have not had any negative experiences or assaults. My dh has. This has had a profound effect on him, and me as a secondary victim.

I don't know whether it means our dd will pick up on my expectation that she will be ok, and that assaults of any kind are not a norm, or to learn fear that an assault can come from where you least expect it.

We are still working things out.

YANBU. I have never, ever said this to anyone, but I have had terrible experiences. When I was 15, a bloke forced me to perform oral sex. When I was 16, my boss pinned me against a wall, shoved his tongue down my throat, groped me, and told me that he would 'love to suck my nipples'. At a festival, I went to bed (in our tent) earlier than my friends (they were still up partying) and woke up to a stranger shoving his hands down my pants. When I was 22, the man I was seeing (and having sex with) pinned me down and said 'I want to fuck your ass', and proceeded to do so. I could go on, but tbh, it would be too horrible.

After the situation with my boss, I can't be alone in a room with a man. Other than DP or my Dad. Men in 'authority' still frighten me.

Oh, and to the poster who found it 'interesting' that some women had never been abused, whereas others had been several times... I'm glad that you find the repeated abuse of women 'interesting'. I personally think that it is horrific.

NoillyPrat Sat 06-Oct-12 07:00:03

I only told my mum what happened to me when I reached 17. She told me it had happened to her and her mum too. We had all been abused for years.

When I told my mum, she confronted him but he denied it, so it got swept under the carpet angry The only other person that knows is my dh.

I know I should have reported it but I was too scared, and I still am. What if they didn't believe me? So now, he knows what he has done, and he's ruined my life. I have no confidence at all. It makes me sick to think of him and the fact I didn't do anything sad angry
If I am lucky enough to have children, how am I going to protect them? It appears to run in my family sad I have to put a stop to this.

Loonytoonie Sat 06-Oct-12 07:13:14

Is the abuser still in your family, Noillyprat?
sad

NoillyPrat Sat 06-Oct-12 07:19:05

Yes, my mums side of the family see him often angry

FrankieMyDearIDontGiveADamn Sat 06-Oct-12 07:29:24

ithinkimight.. ot only am I going to talk to DD about things, in age appropriate terms, I talk to DS.

There is NO excuse, ever, but in a lot of cases men don't think they have done anything wrong, because however obvious it really is society doesn't come down hard enough on it.

Have many many experiences, but in some ways two small ones have a profound effect.

One at 14 at a new years party, my parents there, loads of folk from the village. A married man kissed me quite intensely in the middle of the room at midnight. In front of every one, and his wife. NOBODY did or said a thing. While his poor, shy lovely wife cringed in the corner and I died a little out of shame guilt and embarrassment.

Then at about 28, having drinks with my then H, there were about 12 of us around a table. One of the men reached across one woman, and my H, and grabbed my breast really hard, squeezed it tight and let go.
Everything went quiet. Just for a moment, and then carried on.

Now, I might actually say 'What the fuck do you think you are doing?' and actually, I might even punch him. But again, I died a bit more.

I have some 'safe' male friends, but sadly trust is so eroded, even they are blighted by my experiences.

rowingdowntheriver Sat 06-Oct-12 07:46:07

I've been flashed at about 3 times, one of those times was by a young man in a woods who followed me for about 30 mins (while I was trying to get out of the woods) and kept flashing and wanking himself. Was pretty scary especially as I was minding 2 small children and didn't want them to see / feel scared.

A second time was by the person who used to live opposite me - he used to sit on his window sill with the curtains partially closed and watch me and wank. At first I thought I'd accidentally seen him naked and whilst gross, he must be so embarrassed. It kept happening and he got more and more confident (like he'd wave at me / not hide behind curtains). Again, a bit scary as was worried he'd start following me around / do something worse. Police wouldn't do anything about him though - he was in his own house so doing nothing wrong apparently!

rowingdowntheriver Sat 06-Oct-12 07:50:03

I am so sorry to read many of the stories on here. Some people have suffered horrific experiences.

Loonytoonie Sat 06-Oct-12 07:59:25

Noillyprat, do what needs to be done to protect your children.
My brother, my abuser, is no longer a part of my life. He will never,ever have access to me children. I'm guessing that he's fairly on in age by now (I know I'm making big assumptions here), but age won't make him harmless, especially since he has such a history. Never go near with your children. There are ALWAYS excuses that can be made, if you don't want to scream the truth.

DeliaRose Sat 06-Oct-12 08:11:52

I've been thinking about this recently. There are lots of memories that have resurfaced for me after recent events in the news. I've never considered these events to be sexual abuse because I put myself in the situation.

- 12/13 stacking shelves at the local corner shop for an hour to earn some sweets. I think we got caught pinching (blush) and so were offered to 'earn' instead. In light of that he frisked us each time before we left. I clearly remember being groped. My friend was younger than me.

- i got pushed into a toilet cubicle (age 16) but escaped as he was undoing his trousers, I couldn't tell anyone because I was trying to buy pot from him blush

- my second 'boyfriend'. He was 10 years my senior, I was 16/17. He liked rough sex and would pin me down and tell me to struggle. I got pregnant (not on the pill, he didn't like condoms). It had to be surgical, he dropped me at clinic, and back to friends after. I wanted to see him a day or so after (I was in love hmm) so he took me for a drive. He initiated sex, I said I couldn't because of abortion, he made it clear that's what he was there for and as I didn't want him to go I let him. He stopped half way and said I was making him feel like he was raping me so he took me home. Only other time I heard from him was when he turned up with a friend to take me back to his 'for some fun', 'just the three of us'. Luckily I was a bit wiser and had some spidey senses about me so I declined.

Feel a bit sick writing that down.

There's more but I'll stop there.

I certainly don't see my experience as unusual, all my friends have had similar experiences, especially when younger.

LadyFlumpalot Sat 06-Oct-12 08:14:47

Another one I have just remembered. It didn't get as far as sexual abuse, but it wasn't far off. OH and I were walking along the seafront in Bournemouth, here was a gang of blokes milling around by the games arcade/Harry Ramsdens. Three or four came over to us and one said that we had won a prize and we had to come with them. One then grabbed my arm, and the others got round OH so he couldn't get back to me. The one who had hold of me was trying to drag me off. OH was yelling and trying to fight his way through.

I slapped the guy who was holding me, weirdly I was more scared for OH as I know he ha a temper and didn't want him getting hurt.

He let go of me and swore, the others let OH go and they just wandered off.

Was really shaken up.

The worst thing was that this was in broad daylight, in summer and literally hundreds of people just stood and watched...

DeliaRose Sat 06-Oct-12 08:21:12

More coming to me now

- flashed walking home from school

- on holiday going back with a bloke, sex didn't happen as I was too drunk, we both stopped. But I woke up to a group of blokes groping me and taking pictures.

- numerous instances of being groped in nightclubs

LadyFlumpalot Sat 06-Oct-12 08:42:46

I just said to OH, that I'm actually really hacked off now. All these "little" things I assumed were normal at the time and have subsequently forgotten. They weren't normal, none of it was my fault. Grrrrrrr.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Sat 06-Oct-12 08:45:02

Men have different problems. Nearly every man I know has had to defend himself against assaults from other men (not sexual generally though), and most have come off rather worse for it.

Absolutely! My dh has had that as well.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Sat 06-Oct-12 08:59:03

Oh, and to the poster who found it 'interesting' that some women had never been abused, whereas others had been several times... I'm glad that you find the repeated abuse of women 'interesting'. I personally think that it is horrific.

I've been abused but i still know what they meant, there's no need to be so spikey.

Personally i think it is in part due to vulnerability. I used to attract a certain type of person from men to friends. (I even attracted female friends who wanted to control me just like my abusive ex). I think my vulnerability was like a beacon to a certain type of person.

Obviously not that it was my fault, but having been a victim as a child i unfortunately became one as an adult. I don't get any shit like that now that i am assertive and older. This is only a contributing factor though for me. I was also very shy which perhaps contributed as well. Its like a bully picking the most vulnerable to pick on.

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 09:08:34

Blistory was right on the other page. Teaching our daughters that human rights (like the freedom to walk down the street without being sexually assaulted) apply to women too probably wouldn't help women react better at the time of the assault.

But I truly believe it would immeasurably improve things after incidents. If I have a daughter, and she is ever victimised, I don't want her to spend one single teeny tiny MOMENT blaming herself. I don't want her to hesitate to report it. I want her to feel as outraged and within her rights as anyone would after being mugged. And no, I'm not saying women are property!

whois Sat 06-Oct-12 09:23:19

I haven't been sexually or otherwise assaulted.

I think that is quite a lot lucky, but also partly trying not to put myself in dodgy situations.

For example I have never been back to a guys room after a night out drinking, I never invited anyone back to mine until I was actually going out with them. I just felt uncomfortable about that kind of thing. I know it's defo not the girls fault in those sexual coercion situations, but if you are both drunk and you go back to a guys flat then there is more chance of something bad happening than if you go home to your own bed, alone.

But then, that attitude in itself is also a poor reflection on society because really I should have been able to go back with a guy drunk and have a fumble or whatever but with the expectation a line wouldn't be crossed.

Two of my friends have been raped, both, unusually, by strangers an they were violent. One in the UK and one abroad. I don't think they were reported.

Another friend has had multiple sexual assaults to varying degrees. I feel like an awful person for saying this but she sort of accepts she is a Victim and attracts a certain kind of person. She doesn't have the confidence to nip situations in the bud before they develop into something uncool. for example her driving instructor used to rub his hand on her thiegh. If my driving instructor had tried to put his hand on me once, I would have aske him what he was doing, told him to stop and never had another lesson with him. My friend carried on having lessons with the perv and never said 'stop that'.

whois Sat 06-Oct-12 09:24:54

Meant to say that out of my close female friends, three have been sexually assaulted but me and another four have not. Unwanted advances that were told "no" maybe.

I was raped at 18 and swore i would never let it happen again. The only way i knew how to make sure was to just never say no.
Last month i finally went to the police about it. Im 31

Feminine Sat 06-Oct-12 09:35:50

I have been intimately touched on both the Paris metro and the Japanese train.

I was abused when I was 10.

Since I have been an adult though, I have been very fortunate not to have been.

sittinginthesun Sat 06-Oct-12 09:44:57

Whois - this is the danger, you see. If you think it only happens if you put yourself in risky situations, then you are pushing part if the blame onto the woman.

Of course you have to be careful and risk aware, but I have never gone back to a man's house, never had a one night stand, and yet I have been assaulted.

5pm on a Wednesday afternoon, at work, driving my boss down a duel carriageway.

3pm on a Saturday afternoon at a friend's house.

Middle of a swimming lesson at school, by a teacher..

tangerinefeathers Sat 06-Oct-12 09:46:19

i used to get a lot of weird stuff happen to my when I was a teenager. Flashed, had my pants pulled down once by some bloke who followed me into a carpark. Masturbated at. Also random gropings by people when you wonder if they are aware of what they're doing (and of course they are). My first boyfriend was also a really controlling older bloke, talked me into sex when I was fifteen and in retrospect not ready, then dumped me straight afterwards.

I read somewhere about a study that showed women who walk with an 'uneven gait' are more likely to be targeted. That made me wonder if it was something about my demeanour as a teenager that made me a target - I was a bit of a dreamer, used to wander around in a daze a lot of the time, whereas now I walk fast and don't stop if a strange man tries to engage me, just say, sorry, I'm running late, and keep going.

It's so depressing that in light of some of these stories I feel as if I got off lightly.

flippinada Sat 06-Oct-12 09:46:28

Lovely bit of victim blaming there whois

Abusers often go for someone who is vulnerable and has poor boundaries, but the victim is in no way to blame.

There was a similar thread which may be around somewhere still where women talked about small or low key sexual assaults which made for very disturbing reading.

Looks like this one is shaping up to go the same way.

flippinada Sat 06-Oct-12 09:53:54

There's been a lot of people flashed at on here.

When I was younger, received wisdom was that flashers were harmless and you should feel sorry for them or laugh it off.

I think now though it's acknowledged that flashers often start this way and then build up to more serious offences.

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 09:59:49

I think abusive men/sex offenders are prolific. Over a lifetime of ruining women's days/weeks/lives, they learn to judge who has been conditioned to accept it, and who is more likely to object, whether on the spot, or later on to the police/human resources/etc.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Sat 06-Oct-12 10:02:06

I read somewhere about a study that showed women who walk with an 'uneven gait' are more likely to be targeted.

That's weird!

tangerinefeathers Sat 06-Oct-12 10:02:52

Exactly thebigjessie - they are very calculating in who they approach.

flippinada Sat 06-Oct-12 10:03:15

I think you're right Jessie.

Btw don't want to infer that people who have laughed off or don't feel disturbed by flashers are "in the wrong".

If people aren't disturbed by it that's good.

FreudiansGoldSlipper Sat 06-Oct-12 10:04:13

if you read all the posts on here you will see that most of the abuse has happened when we were young. when you are growing up your confidence with your body and yourself as a person grows (if allowed to) but sadly some feel it is ok to take advantage

they do seek out those they know they can take advantage of, young women and girls because they are in a position of power, the intimidation just by being physically larger and stronger, the its only a bit of fun manipulation, there are many way an abuser will take advantage and it is always in their control they do not have to what they are doing they choose to

tangerinefeathers Sat 06-Oct-12 10:04:37

I know it's weird. I should try and find the link before randomly quoting it, but it makes sense to me - if you are walking in a straight, fast line you presumably look more purposeful, less likely to be distracted, taken in. It's something I would definitely teach my daughter, if i had one.

flippinada Sat 06-Oct-12 10:06:23

I think the uneven gait thing refers to someone wandering about looking a bit lost or maybe unsure of where they are going.

Predators may pick up on that.

whogivesaduck1 Sat 06-Oct-12 10:12:56

Blistory Why do those who haven't experienced this kid of thing consider yourselves lucky ? Surely your experiences should be normal ?

this is exactly what I think. I do not consider myself luck not to have been abused or had any unwanted sexual attention- I would just think that was normal. Normal for me to go about my business un-groped or unmolested!

I think it is truly horrific that so many women/girls have been abused and treated this way. I in no way think they are to blame or that it is their fault.

I would not ever say or think that I have been 'lucky' not to have been abused etc. I just think of it as my normal, no luck involved. I think it should (although I appreciate that it is not the case) be normal to not be abuse or molested or raped. and it is my norm.

I believe each and everyone of you, and I am so sorry for what you have gone through and survived.

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 10:13:09

I actually tend to stride along with a scowl on my face, to deter chuggers and energy salesmen!

And yeah, young people are ideal victims. It's that stage between feeling obliged to hug uncle Danny, auntie Mavis because your parents said so, and becoming an adult who thinks she's in charge oof her body, or believes she's entitled to make exceptions for particular body areas/people.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Sat 06-Oct-12 10:17:37

Oh that makes more sense. Thought it meant someone who had a wonky walk! grin

mrsminerva Sat 06-Oct-12 10:23:32

Yes lost virginity at 14 to older man. I was a troubled teen. I spiralled out of control after that till my early 20s but am OK now so I don't think about it any more. Have been very careful of my own DDs, lucky enough to give them their own cars so they were not dependant on men, made sure their self esteem was as high as I could, and bluntly told them what happened to me so they could avoid the same mistakes.

YouMayLogOut Sat 06-Oct-12 10:23:46

Could we please refer to women and girls, rather than "females"? "Females" could be any animal so it's a bit of a de-humanising term.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 10:24:03

I have read every single post.

Each and every single perssons experiences are true and we believe you x

mrsminerva Sat 06-Oct-12 10:25:04

Never had any abuse form within the family though so guess I am lucky in that respect, thats far more damaging from what I can see as they are people you should be able to trust.

MadBusLady Sat 06-Oct-12 10:30:17

Conditioning! That's the word I was trying to think of last night. I wasn't particularly conditioned to be aware of potential assault situations when young. In fact I was more than averagely naive in lots of ways. But I was conditioned to be a right awkward antisocial cuss who didn't do things I didn't want to do. My mum would say this was an innate characteristic, but she is an awkward cuss too so I'm not sure I believe her. grin

If there is any reason beyond pure luck why I've never been attacked, perhaps that is it. It comes with its immense downsides though. Lots of bullying, difficulty understanding social ebb and flow in friendships etc. It's basically lacking some forms of socialisation! It may make you immune to some bad stuff, but you lose good stuff with it.

So maybe that doesn't get us very far. It would all be much simpler if the men just didn't do it. And on that note, if you're going to tell your DDs, please tell your DSs as well. Whole point is it shouldn't be a shameful little secret among women.

Jinsei Sat 06-Oct-12 10:31:15

I'm sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but YANBU OP. I have also been a victim, though not as awful as some of the stories on here.sad

It's awful that behaviour of this nature is so widespread. I don't know what we can do about it. I never reported what happened to me. Perhaps I should have done, but I just wanted it out of my mind.

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 10:31:37

Ye-es youmaylogout but I always feel guilty when I say women and girls on two counts. Firstly, boys are abused. Secondly, I feel like I am denying the experiences of a transgender person I know who is biologically female but doesn't identify as a woman or a man. And that person has suffered a lot.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 06-Oct-12 10:32:25

I'm disturbed by the pp who thinks that because she took the 'correct' safeguarding steps in her younger life, she wasn't sexually assaulted.

In my younger days I have (possibly unwisely) flouted all the safety advice - I have got into taxis drunk out of my mind, walked through carparks and alleyways in the wee small hours and taken complete strangers home for sex. I've even taken taken complete strangers home and not had sex with them, with no problem. Obviously I was 'lucky'.

My major sexual assaults (attempted rape and rape) happened in the safety of my own home, by people I knew and should have been able to trust.

Unless we want to have to teach our daughters to trust no one, ever, we need to start tackling this with our sons as well as our daughters. We need to stop brushing male predatory behaviour under the carpet, and just accepting it as 'what men do'.

whois Sat 06-Oct-12 10:33:18

flippinada not at all, it is never the victims fault. Ever. Only the fault of the piece of shit who committed the act.

I just don't understand why my lovely, kind, fun and beautiful friend puts up with shit from men who take advantage. It's like a nasty cycle that something bad happened ages ago, so she doesn't have the confidence to speak out, which twats seem to pick up on and take advantage of sad

And there is something to be said for trying not to put yourself in risky situations. For example, we all should feel able to walk down the street without fear of mugged. But there are some streets I sure as hell don't walk down at night on my own, and you take other steps to reduce the chances of being mugged by not having headphones in, not having your iPhone out.

Women shouldn't have to be constantly worried about fear of sexual assault, but there is something to be said about trying to minimise the risk.

I kind of see it like this:

Bad things happen. This is not good and it's not right.
Bad things are more likely to happen in certain situations.
I don't want bad things to happen to me or my friends (well, anyone). So if a situation seems dodgy (eg drunk friend wanting to walk home on her own, or an overly pushy guy wanting me to go back to his) then I'll try and alter the situation by arranging for us all to share a taxi or walk her home, or call half a taxi and not go home with tr pushy guy..

You can't do anything to ensure you never get assaulted/abused but you can try and limit the oppertunities for it happening.
Unfortunately abusers pick on those that are least able to alter the situation e.g employer who knows you can't afford I loose your job, or whatever.

AllPastYears Sat 06-Oct-12 10:33:20

"I think that is quite a lot lucky, but also partly trying not to put myself in dodgy situations."

I had my crotch grabbed by a man as I stepped onto a train in rush hour. I was respectably dressed btw. Silly me to put myself in such a dodgy situation. hmm

MadBusLady Sat 06-Oct-12 10:36:13

I think the "dodgy situations" thing is at best a game of averages. Maybe staying out of them lessens your chances of being attacked on any given day. But there are plenty of examples of attacks in non-dodgy situations.

whois Sat 06-Oct-12 10:38:20

SabrinaMulhollandJjones I would say you were very unlucky to have been raped :-(

But I would also say your were quite lucky not to have had anything bad happen to you (not just sexually) of you were wandering around deserted car parks at night, out of your mind.

The worst elements of society pray on those least able to defend themselves, and by doing the above you probably were wry lucky never to have been mugged. Or else you live in a safer area than me!

flippinada Sat 06-Oct-12 10:39:12

Ok whois maybe my response was a little harsh.

Buy the problem is when you say it didn't happen to me because xyz....that ours some fault on the person who has been abused.

When the reality is abusers are very skilled at spotting victims and isolating them.

Also a lot of abusers are someone who is known to the victim and considered trustworthy.

nemno Sat 06-Oct-12 10:39:43

My assaults as a teen happened in the daytime in a doctor's consulting room, a grocer's shop, a sports hall and in a family home. Nothing apparently risky about those places.

flippinada Sat 06-Oct-12 10:39:49

Sorry - ours should say put.

whois Sat 06-Oct-12 10:40:07

AllPastYears you were unlucky. I did say there was luck involved if you read my post.

Can I ask what you did after your crotch was grabbed?

thebody Sat 06-Oct-12 10:43:10

Hi bushy, I was brought up in the 70s and 80s.

My mom never worked and had a very controlling relationship with my dad, he gave her money each week for the housekeeping, she never worked, he basically had the upper hand.

Both me and my Sis were encouraged to be ' ladies' sounds funny now but it meant basically be sweet, gentle, compliant, don't argue, don't embarrass parents. When I told my mom about the school taxi driver, ' tickling in my knickers' she told me not to be silly.

Now my dds have admittedly 2 much older brothers who have been father figures to them as dh often worked away when they were little.
I don't have any magic formula but we reinforce our belief system that they are strong girls, that their opinions and feelings matter and that boys are primarily mates and not to be pleased or slobbered over.

They both do martial arts and free fighting, both opinionated and high achieving.

I always worked and they see my dh treating me with equal respect.

Fingers crossed.

whois Sat 06-Oct-12 10:43:28

flippinada

When the reality is abusers are very skilled at spotting victims and isolating them.

^And that, is the biggest problem sad

flippinada Sat 06-Oct-12 10:43:35

X posts with Nemo and bus lady.

I too have a lovely friend who seems to be a sitting duck for horrible men. But I blame the men, not her.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 06-Oct-12 10:44:44

I was not 'unlucky' to have been raped. These were not things that happened by chance.

They were things that happened by trusted men who felt entitled to have sex with me without my consent.

flippinada Sat 06-Oct-12 10:47:45

What can you do to safeguard yourself when the abuser is someone in a position of trust or authority though?

The reality is, you can't.

And since I haven't responded to the OP yet, yanbu.

ithinkimightbegoingmad Sat 06-Oct-12 10:59:36

whois i think this whole thing about 'victims' being a certain way and that why they get raped is complete rot

it holds some weight for women who bounce between abusive relationships.....

but on this thread, alot of people are talking of being assualted/raped as children...of course they are vulnerable, they are supposed to be vulnerable hmm

AllPastYears Sat 06-Oct-12 11:00:04

"AllPastYears you were unlucky. I did say there was luck involved if you read my post.

Can I ask what you did after your crotch was grabbed? "

I punched him! Never punched anyone before or since, so I hurt my hand more than him. And I swore lots. Didn't report it though - I was abroad, which makes reporting more troublesome I guess. But also, you think "What's the point? They'll never find him." The others in the crowded carriage just stood and looked. Might have helped if I could have sworn in their language.

For a long time after I carried my keys in my hand on public transport, so if it happened again I could scratch his face and do the bastard some actual damage.

ithinkimightbegoingmad Sat 06-Oct-12 11:02:28

this thread has made me realise that i completely accept men groping/flashing/masterbating etc as inevitable

a few years after my wn last experience, i was with a friend when she got grabbed in the crotch in a busy street in the middle of the day. she was a bit shaken, we went for a coffee and then continued. i hardly batted an eyelid

thebody Sat 06-Oct-12 11:04:12

Also just as crucial to bring up your sons properly. Respect and to be well just kind.

BoffinMum Sat 06-Oct-12 11:05:59

I agree, this is probably the case, but I think it's worth putting it behind you in most cases and just joining the collective effort to reduce the incidence for future women.

I have lost count of the times I have been followed, groped, flashed at and cocerced in my life, but I have to say I feel crosser and more anxious about people being outragously rude and unfair to me in shops or in bureaucratic situations. Am I alone?

whois Sat 06-Oct-12 11:06:29

What can you do to safeguard yourself when the abuser is someone in a position of trust or authority though?

Nothing.

But you should hope for a better response from those in a position to help you than the one the body received.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones ah, luck, unlucky, chance etc I think that depends on your personal view of the world.

Interestingly, there is some research a friend was telling me about which is about how you see good and bad thing that have happened to you. If you see good things as within your control (eg promotion at work) but bad things as not in your locus of control (the mantra it wasn't your fault) then you do better at dealing with bad things. I'm massively paraphrasing, but it's quite interesting. Although when you think about it not very surprising. I think that is why the cycle for friend A (we shall call her) never seems to break because it's become so normalised for her to have shit men (conditioned?). Makes me so cross. I want to fucking castrate her last 'boyfriend' on her behalf.

nemno Sat 06-Oct-12 11:06:57

I never realised that I might in some way have been to blame/responsible for unwanted attention. I thought until now that every woman would have some story to tell. I was a very confident, responsible, friendly teen, but definitely too trusting and unworldly. I've always thought I was the target of these particular men because i had big breasts, they definitely were focused on them (and I did get many random, lewd comments and looks in the street even though I dressed very modestly). All 4 men were at least 50 years old.

I never had issues with boyfriends or boys my own age, I was well prepared and expected to have to deal with them I think (and I never came across anything worse than a bit of trying it on, not like so many on this thread).

I've never told anyone about these incidents so if you were my best friend you wouldn't know.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 11:07:36

Allpastyears you go girl! smile

whois Sat 06-Oct-12 11:08:32

I punched him! Never punched anyone before or since, so I hurt my hand more than him. And I swore lots

I had hoped you would say something like that!

I hope I would react similar and not be too shocked or something.

AnastasiaSteele Sat 06-Oct-12 11:10:23

Same here ithink - so sad. I was thinking I hadn't because of the scale - but I've been flashed at, on my morning commute by a young man. I felt violated, was scared he would follow me and attack me. I did report it to the police.

Also had a colleague try it on with me - no signals given. Told him he'd just done something very stupid (his partner works in same organisation) and I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was just pissed and stupid and to pretend it hadnt happened. He tried his luck again! So I left. I see him occasionally at work and he is sheepish with me these days.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 11:12:19

Anastasia how did the police treat you, when you reporyed the incident?

LadyFlumpalot Sat 06-Oct-12 11:13:42

AllPastYears It is the norm in the part of the South East where I grew up to walk home with your keys in your hand, one sticking out between your 2nd and 3rd fingers "just in case".

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 11:14:45

nemno you were never responsible, even if you weere doinmg the can-can naked.

I feel absolutely certain that those men had free will! If they didn't have control over their actions, then they should've been in a psychiatric unit, and it's still not your responsibility!

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 11:26:21

WHY do men/boys secually assault otbers?

WHY do women/girls sexually assault others?

Does anybody blame their parents, the environment in which the abuser was raised, porn industry etc?
Or is it mental illness associated with their own abuse as a child or adult?

How the hell can we stop sexual abuse?

Abusers do not have I AM A SEXUAL ABUSER tattooed on their forrid.

We as people rely on our instincts and even in the best circumstances that does not prevent us being abused.

Children are obviously the most vulnerable and people who are not in control of makibg best decisions - the mentally disabled etc.

Maybe we can mever stop it.

Is why I believe I have been fortunate that sexual abuse has not happened to me more than it already has.

The taxi driver who tried to rape me sad jumped on me, I was sober wearing modest clothing and had not e gaged in anythingbut formal conversation etc

It is not the victims fault EVER

IsSpringSprangedYet Sat 06-Oct-12 11:29:37

My mum and biological dad split up the moment she caught him wanking over me. I was 4 (maybe three) and have flashes of a memory of him doing more than that. Mum was pressured not to do anything about it, just to divorce him and move on. My DH and plenty of others know about it and some think the story is just a rumour.

Then, about 10 years ago, the man who had then brought us up as his own, got drunk, got in bed with me and put his hand down my knickers. I was petrified and couldn't move. I was worried he'd get in trouble. I was worried my mum or sisters wouldn't believe me, as he wasn't like that. It wasn't until he sat up and tried to pull my knickers down that I thought I'd get out and went and sat downstairs. He came down and tried to give me a cuddle. When I said no, he told me to go back to bed and he was sorry. He didn't come back up, and it's never been mentioned since. At all. I don't know if he would even remember he did it. He and mum had split up about 5 years before, and I put it down as him just being lonely. I feel sick now. DH doesn't know about it. No one does. Well, except you lot! I was 19, and don't know why I didn't stop him. I think I was worried he'd tell me off. At 19 years old!?!

This thread will stick with me all day.

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 11:33:42

Rapists believe rape myths, too. Hardly anyone thinks of themselves as a "bad person". We all, whatever the moral nature and gravity of our actions, have justifications. Rapists don't think ofg themselves as "proper rapists". Proper rapists, to them, are people like Peter Sutcliffe. We need to bring our sons up to understand that none of those victim-blaming pieces of nonsense, I.e. Rape myths, are true.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 11:38:41

Exvellent point TheBiJessoe.

I was raised to believe that stealing, telling lies and hitting is wrong.

I have done all three many times

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 06-Oct-12 11:39:34

I'm so sorry for all the experiences told on here. This thread will also stay with me all day, and a lot longer. Not least because I was just told by another poster that I was just 'unlucky' to have been raped. To dismiss someone else's experience like this is beyond the pale.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 11:39:42

TheBigJessie (sp correction)

nemno Sat 06-Oct-12 11:39:56

Thank you Jessie for that, but don't worry I have absolutely no problems arising from the incidents. I really, until now, thought they were normal. It's realising from this thread that I did have more than my 'fair' share of attention that I am wondering 'why me?'. And though the obvious and correct answer is that I was unlucky to encounter these particular tossers, many comments on this thread seem to suggest that there is something about the victim that attracts the attention.

In my case I have been happy to assume it was big breasts and thus out of my control. But thinking about it, all 4 men knew me (to varying degrees) before the assaults, they were all older men. They all clocked that I wouldn't tell, and they were right. I am pondering this.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 11:41:59

Sabrina it is not your fault. I/we believe you.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 11:45:30

Nemno abusers also on some level take the chance that victims will not tell. They cannever be sure we won't. Some do but most do not tell I think. That is probably what they rely on, probably not much to do with what vibe you/I/others were sending out at the time or before that.

You have done nothing wrong.

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 11:59:00

If anything serious had happened to me between say, 15 and 18, I wouldn't have reported it, because then my mother would have found out, and reacted by severely limiting my freedoms. In effect punishing me!

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 12:00:27

That was another reason I did not report TheBigJessie.

nemno Sat 06-Oct-12 12:03:26

Blimey you guys are good. That will have been part of my (unconscious) thinking too!

piratecat Sat 06-Oct-12 12:05:23

old uncle and aunty next doot ( not 'real' ones) who befriended us when we were new to the area. i was 9, sibling 4, used to try and put his tongue in our mouths when kissed bye bye. lifted me up by my feet and held my legs open, my mother was in the other room. used to feel my bra straps.

mother just said avoid him. confused late 1970's. it was 'that' mentality back then, that 'oh he's just a dirty old man' thing.

I had a lucky escape on a holiday in my early 20's. I think I would have been raped. My drink had been spiked by a 'rep' at a party, he followed me into the bathroom and started undressing me. Thank God for my friend who followed me in, she was suspicious of him and I had been acting strangely and out of character, and hauled me out before....makes me want to vomit thinking of the bastard.

I have had my backside groped at work and received inappropriate sexual comments at two different workplaces. In the first incident, it was more recnt, before I was pregnant with DS1, I was more confident and was so angry. I yelled "get your filthy hands off, never touch me again, I'm reporting you, you pervert!" I did report him and other female colleagues came forward with similar complaints. He was investigated and warned, but is still working there.

Some of the posts are so saddening and sickening. There are some evil, disgusting monsters about.

I can't believe this shit still goes on.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 12:18:13

Sorry to read of your experience piratecat. I believe all you say.

I wonder whether being victims of sexual assault actually does positively assist us when weighing up others?

It does. When i go out i go out in a pack. We all watch out for each other.
There is always at least one lady that doesn't drink.
I had my drink spiked once, even though i followed all my rules about having bottles, not leaving them lying around, it turned out the guy that brought the drink right in front of my face had spiked it when i looked away for literally 2 seconds, then spent the rest of the night hovering by me ready for when it hit.
I have rescued other women i didn't even know when it was plainly obvious they had been spiked or drank too much to be aware of the man offering to take them home.

If i owned a club i would have someone on the door that didn't roll their eyes at 'pissed' women leaving with a sober man.. i would have them check, question, and pull the woman out of the situation if they thought something wasn't right.

Badgersnatch Sat 06-Oct-12 13:07:19

YANBU. I had an older boyfiend when I was fifteen, I certainly wasn't ready for the kind of relationship that he expected and that I was drawn into. I've also had my drink spiked (lucky escape) and my sister was date-raped in her teens. We never reported any of this.

Sarraburd Sat 06-Oct-12 13:45:26

This thread makes me so sad and angry, and yes also worried for DD/wanting to protect her.

A lot of the stories are similar to things that have happened to me/friends. Not raped myself, but definitely when younger several times pressured into sex when I didn't want to. Friends both date raped and by strangers. When my mum was traveling in Iran a guy drugged her and tried to rape her even though my farther was with her. Luckily they managed to escape. Lots of flashings etc - agree back then flashing/men wanking definitely seen as saddo to be ignored/laughed at rather than reported.

YANBU, but I so wish you were.

BegoniaBampot Sat 06-Oct-12 13:58:52

Is is a hard one to admit. Over 20 yrs ago when I was a teenager I was in a nightclub in Spain with my friend. One British girl who was off her face on drink or drugs stripped off to her knickers and started dancing, she was rubbing herself against some random guy who was pushing her off in disgust. We all just danced away from her, TBH we were pissed off at her antics and the fact she was British and we already had a crap reputation with the locals. Her friends just got fed up after trying to get her off the dance floor and left her to it. Group of local lads just went over and picked her up and walked out of the club with her literally tossed over their shoulders the - bouncers, no-one did anything. I still feel shame and horror thinking what happened to that girl. Someone should have done something, no matter how she was acting.

MrsToddsShortcut Sat 06-Oct-12 14:07:46

Sexually abused by dad's colleague when I was 5
Brother tried to rape me when I was 11
Groped by man when on family holiday when I was 13
Ex-boyfriend refused to stop during sex when it hurt and carried on regardless
Sexually assaulted by a friends ex-boyfriend when I was 24

None of it reported. i suspect because I wasn't believed as a very young child, I kind of ended up thinking that there was no point or that it was 'normal' sad

Have found the last week exceptionally triggering actually, as well as feeling beyond furious at the wilful ignorance displayed elsewhere on the internet about this stuff.

Natnat29 Sat 06-Oct-12 14:08:40

Very sad and distrubing thread. I have had some bad experiences but not compared to other posters. The weird thing is I hadn't thought/or spoke about them in at least 10 years.
When I was about 18 I was waking to a friends house- busy street, middle of a sunny afternoon was stopped my a lad prob the same age I was 18ish, normal looking guy asking me the time making small talk- then I realised he was flashing me and touching himself, tried to get Past him and ran off. Another time I had my drink spiked in a club luckily my friends got me in a taxi and bk home they thought I'd had one too many until the next day when we realised what had happened- I sure it was an ex's friend and should have reported it but I never did I hope he never did it to anyone else.

JustPoodling Sat 06-Oct-12 14:15:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 14:44:21

How to avoid sexual abuse:

Firstly, before conception, the female/male should only select which family to be born into after CRB checks and exhaustive psychological reports on each potential family member and all their friends.

Next, during physical childhood, the individual should avoiding being a child emotionally, and somehow magic up the life experience and knowledge of a seasoned fifty-year-old.

Next, she or he should commit to a life of religious seclusion. If you avoid people entirely, you should avoid meeting the subset of people who are abusive.

Easy, eh?

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 14:47:02

Quick note: the above is NOT blaming victims. I am trying to point out the absurdity of blaming victims.

This was shared with me this morning. I hope it helps some of you

A survivors words...

As a kid growing up it wasn't the best
Being put through pain was the biggest test
Wishing for a hero that never showed their face
Trying to be brave trying to win the race

A savior, a guide, please someone help me
Life seemed so dull, endless, no hope could i see
A child, a woman, screaming through the night
But then came the guidance, a savior the light.

The years fly by so fast and wild
The guilt the anger the pain still there but mild
We've dealt with the shit and a hell of a lot more
A woman a lady i have now become mature

So through that pain,through all the tears,
A gentle word spoken relieves those fears
A bad man taken away for good,
I can sleep at night like others should

Although the memories will remain, still fresh and raw
I am a woman, a fighter, and not scared of you now, like you are the law
That predator beat me and i vowed never again he would
Putting your pen to the register each week just like you should

May hell be uncomfortable like the way you made me feel
And i hope it hurts no relief no cure for you to steel
The pain you gave to me and others will return upon you
May the pain you caused follow into your next life too
May my life continue on holding my head up so high
You have not defeat me, you never will even till the day i die

Knowing you did wrong an adult to a child!
Your life should be far from mild
A tattoo on your head there should be
A sign a warning for all to see
A monster walking amongst our young
Free to roam which is so wrong

Please don't rest in piece, don't ever rest at all
I will fight you and others i am stronger and will not fall!
I'm alive, a fighter, a survivor and a mum
My children will come first, b safe and looked after that's second to none!

flippinada Sat 06-Oct-12 15:38:32

I like that Jessie very good.

Pretty much the only way to guarantee avoidance of abusive types ime.

NoillyPrat Sat 06-Oct-12 16:01:38

Thanks for sharing that ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmm smile

mirry2 Sat 06-Oct-12 16:45:33

These experiences sicken me but it's made me think about why I've never felt comfortable with men flirting with me. I've had so many bad experiences, going back to my very early childhood that I avoided engaging with anyone who chatted me up or who I thought fancied me, unless I already knew him as a friend. I got lots of attention from men when I was younger and now sometimes regret my behaviour when I talk to friends who had a high old time with lots of boyfriends and regulalry went out 'on the pull'

BratinghamPalace Sat 06-Oct-12 16:52:04

Fuckadoodle, you did not ATTRACT them because of your vulnerablility. They SEARCH for that. This is a subtle but very important difference for you to understand and accept. You had no complicity whatsoever. You or anyone for that matter is allowed to be vulnerable.
Ladies my heart is breaking. I have three dds. I was groped in a club once when 20. I am am 45 now and can remember it as if it happened yesterday. By groped I mean a finger was ramed up my bottom with an incredible force And until now, reading this, I thought it was my fault for wearing that dress!

AnastasiaSteele Sat 06-Oct-12 17:17:01

solesource they were actually reasonable with me but nothing could be done, I had a description and that was that. So it got reported but stopped there. I didnt feel like I was being OTT by reporting it, he must have been about 20 so if he was doing that at that age, I thought he would only go further along the continuum of sexual offending so to speak. But I think a lot of people do just think its funny.

Thinking about the seriousness of the incident, I did feel violated but I have to admit my colleague trying it on probably felt like more of a violation because of the trust and the intrusion on my work life. The flasher scared me more though and I felt less in control and more vulnerable in that situation.

I wonder however, if that colleague had tried it on 10 years ago in my first job what would have happened, I think the power differential would be greater and I would have felt under more pressure to give in to him if you see what I mean.

Palace.. so sorry to hear that, same has happened here.. i too had a dress on, but i didn't feel guilty for wearing it, plenty of other men there treated me well and hugged me as a greeting without leaping on me and trying to poke and prod.
You actually feel afraid to have a go at them in case they hit you. Its obvious they have some kind of misguided feeling you will somehow find it enjoyable or something hmm

One man i worked with once met me while i was out, and pulled my top so it exposed my breast. Cue him laughing and about 2.4 seconds of shock before he got punched in the face and kneed in the groin. I hope it was worth the response he got, a couple of second flash of boob. Then i got the bouncers to chuck him out.

The older we get the less tolerant of it we are.
The same goes for relationships.
I believe thats why these people prey on young ladies, because they know they will get away with it.. not because its acceptable or enjoyable, simply that the person would be afraid or shocked or just 'accept' it.
Its a shame really because if you report it in a nightclub most places chuck the guy out while giving him a good roughing up.

These days i would be more likely to demand that they held him outside while the police were called.

I'm seriously considering getting DD self defence classes.. and chaperoning her on nights out. Call me boring but the alternative..

NP no problem hun i had it shared with me by a lovely lady earlier this afternoon, she said it was ok to share and she hoped it would help someone x

I shall add to this horrendous list...my step father made me do things i didn't want to, made suggestive remarks in front of my mother. He got off on double entendre and commented about my breasts from the age of 11. My mother knew about some of the abuse but chose to ignore it. In fact, she grew to be jealous of the vile attention he showed me. She once touched me intimitely and told me it was to see if I had had a strip down wash, but it was very intimate. I remember as a 3 or 4 year old being held down, my mum and someone (maybe even a doctor) intimitely examining me. I have been flashed at, I have been groped.

I know my mum was attacked, my aunties husband raped a disabled child - abusive men are all around. Everywhere. If they do not abuse then they cheat on their wives or obsess about porn.

I believe a handful of men are keepers.

I have no idea why men are such monsters. But many of them are. Some people just do not see it. If you watch closely enough - it is plain for all to see.

BratinghamPalace Sat 06-Oct-12 18:41:31

Go hmm, thank you. In the face of such appalling suffering on these pages mine is very minor indeed. I do think though that ALL the perpetrators of a small or huge violence against a child, woman or man NEVER have a misguided thought of "they will enjoy it". I think it is ALWAYS done to demean, humiliate, violate, dominate, abuse ect. I found it utterly tragic up thread when someone said that the best defense she had against it ever happening again was to never say no. I really worry for my children, all little girls. I am looking at them after reading this, all under 5 and fairly delighted with life. The thoughts of anyone touching them, or making them feel that way .......

greyshoes Sat 06-Oct-12 18:50:36

I have been thinking about this subject lately too. It's also my belief that abuse and assault is the typical experience for women and girls. It makes me angry and depressed. The Jimmy Saville case brought up a lot of things for me, especially issues about women and girls not being heard or believed when they speak out about abuse.

These are my experiences:

age 10 I was pinned down and kissed / groped by two boys of my own age.
On another occasion they tried to take my pants off.

Age 12 on holiday with my school. The coach driver who accompanied us for the trip spoke several times to the girls about inappropriate sexual things, tried to grope us, tried to come into the shower when I was in there, and at the end of the holiday, kissed on the lips and hugged all the girls goodbye, while pressing his erection against us. This last was in front of all the teachers and our parents. None of us ever spoke to any adult about this. We girls spoke to one another about it wrt ways of helping each other avoid him and avoid further assaults by him. It chills me that we were scared of him, knew he was doing wrong, yet never once dreamt of asking an adult for help. I think we felt ashamed and that we would not be believed. Adults didn't believe the word of children against that of another adult, plus sex was shameful and it would have been extremely embarrassing to speak about.

I was flashed at a couple of times, in my young teens.

Age 15 I was on holiday with my parents and got absolutely blind drunk at a party. I was given lots of alcohol by my parents and other adults at the party. A 45 year old man at the party kissed and groped me, then took me into a bedroom and had sex with me. Afterwards another man of about 35 kissed and groped me and another friend of mine who was also 15 and drunk. There were plenty of adults around while all this was happening.

Age 16 I was kissed and groped by my boss while working in a restaurant. All of the (much older) male staff there would make sexual remarks to me (I was aged 15 - 16 while working there) and discuss explicit sexual matters in my presence.

I have been lucky that as an adult I have not experienced any non-consensual sexual experiences, only crap like having sexual remarks shouted at me. Last year I was smacked hard on the bum by a stranger out of the blue! This is quite trivial I know, but definitely upset me and I reported this - the first time I have ever reported any form of sexual assault. The police, not surprisingly, could not do anything about it.

Thank you to those who have shared experiences on this thread. It feels comforting to speak to people who understand, although obviously I regret each and every occasion that any of you were assaulted / abused.

Bratingham - you were not groped. You were sexually assualted - seriously assualted. Terrible and like you say - humiliating for you. I feel terrible for everyone here that has had these things happen. It is sadly all around us...I suspect it has always been like that.

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Oct-12 19:12:57

Something is wrong with our culture and with every culture in which these things happen. My two little boys have been having a cuddly-toys tea party, and rushing around with pretend cups of tea. All men were like this once. What happens/happened to them that they felt entitled to treat fellow human beings like objects?

SomersetONeil Sat 06-Oct-12 19:41:21

God this thread is an eye-opener. I was all day to come on and say YABU, but of course, I've had all the low level stuff to me happen. Like so many others, I didn't really think it counted - just an accepted part of life. I'm amazed that there are women out there that have never been groped, felt up, leered at, wolf-whistled, had suggestive comments made, etc, etc...

I honestly think some men have no idea how threatening they can be. What, to them, is perhaps the cut and gib of teens/20s putting yourself out there, flirting, pulling (or trying to), etc, etc, is often really, really unwelcome and threatening for those on the receiving end. They have absolutely no idea how it feels to almost inevitably be the physically weaker one and just know inherently in yourself that if things were to get out of hand, you'd likely be over-powered.

It's not even like most situations get to this point. Low-level groping in a club is just a random guy chancing his arm. But for the physically weaker person it is - or easily can be - intimidating and scary. I honestly think that so many men have no idea of what that feels like, and how it pretty much always puts you on the back foot. They're just having a laugh, trying it on, it doesn't really mean anything, get over your self, it's no big deal, done by them and forgotten instantly. But for women who accept this as part and parcel of every day life - and when the attention is not invited and welcome - it is intimidating. And I'm 5'9".

I was walking home from town (broad daylight) once when coming in the opposite direction to me was a girl of about 14. Hanging around was about 3 or 4 boys (they were about the same age as her). As she walked past, they made all sorts of comments. Didn't physically touch her or actually threaten her, just these comments. I couldn't hear what they said - but I could feel the fear literally emanating off her. You could almost see her try to shrink herself to make herself smaller, invisible. I stayed and watched to make sure they didn't go after her. It was such a complete and utter non-event in the minds of those boys, but for her it was awful - and for me as nothing more than a mere witness, it was so tangible I'll probably never forget it.

I was groped in the street by a 10 year old boy in broad daylight aged about 25 or 26. I was shocked speechless at the brass neck of him. Although I was hardly scarred for life, it really shook me as it was quite aggressive and obviously done for laughs and - effectively - for me to be ridiculed. That 10 year old feral little shit probably forgot about it 5 mins later, but 12 years on I still remember it.

I also worked in a bar in the City for nearly two years. As a barmaid, you basically sign yourself up for it. You totally are fair game. I was touched incessantly - not always in a sexual way - often just a hand in the waist or arm, but of course much more as well. Felt up, propositioned. I was 24 and didn't even think to mind. I was a barmaid, what did I expect? And of course, the barmaid that reprimands every man who touches her isn't exactly going to be appreciated by management...!

So on reflection I have been very lucky - no rape, no abuse, just bog standard 'mild' harassment. I'm so sorry for what some of you have been through. sad

VeritableSmorgasbord Sat 06-Oct-12 19:56:42

I've been thinking about this thread all day.
One thing it has brought home - I think this is important actually - is that I have been alone with a lot of men, as a child and as a woman, and they have behaved decently and well.
Certainly there are some men who never behave decently around women and girls, and I think it's unclear whether they are the majority or minority. I wish more decent men realised that.

QueenStromba Sat 06-Oct-12 20:16:11

I empathise with the poster who said that she felt that the only way to avoid being raped again was to not say no. As I said before, there have been a few occasions where I have consented because I had a feeling that it was going to happen whether I consented or not. Like the guy who followed me into the toilets in a nurse's hall of residence. I tried to get past him to get away and he just wasn't letting me. At least by consenting I was able to get him to wear a condom. The creep was an A&E doctor. I was only there because the "friend" I was out with was insistent that she was going back with two men she'd only just met and I figured that if I couldn't dissuade her then at least she'd be safe if I went with here and I was the one who for all intents and purposes was raped. I doubt the pathetic excuse for a man thinks of himself as a rapist though.

Well! I have to admit i am shocked by something that happened approx an hour ago round the corner from my house whilst i was walking the dog.

3 boys, aged about 10-12, chatting and shouting 'i'll rape your mom' to each other shock i actually had to say to them, do you know what rape is.. because i was simply stunned. None of them replied, just stood there looking shifty.

I am mega shocked, still.

Somerset I have to admit to being kept safe by my very build and stature. I'm 6ft 3 and quite strongly built, always done 'mans jobs' heavy lifting ect.. i've knocked a few people out for 'chancing their arm' and i mean flat on their back. I've felt pretty safe where other people might not, walking in the dark, ect. I also own large dogs, they add to my feeling of safety.
I got taught a few 'moves' in ju jitsu by a very good friend, enough to enable me to get away if i ever get attacked, i don't know if i would have the presence of mind to use them.

I also have to be aware that my physical stature can be intimidating to people, its hard because you don't feel big, everyone else seems small.. lol.. but i cross the road at night while walking alone or with the dogs so i don't scare people also out walking. i try not to catch up with them or if they slow down to allow me to overtake so i'm in front of them, i do so.
I have also told my DS to be aware that he could be intimidating as he is tall, too, and explained in detail why.

I've made him aware of things he wouldn't have normally been aware of in regard to women. I'm pretty open about stuff.

But then he goes to his DF's and oh my god his attitude when he comes back STINKS. He makes comments on things on tv and we doscuss his comments and feelings. During the week, they're kind, warm, empathetic. following contact, they are cold, almost cruel, selfish.

I think we have a long way to go before some men teach their sons that women are equals, to be loved and protected by their partners.

During a playfight with him a couple of weeks ago, i only just managed to overpower him.. he said 'You're weak' i replied, son, i may be weak physically, but i have put up with a lot of things that would have broken a man, and given birth to three children.
Treat women how you would want me to be treated, or your daughter if you had one, don't ever follow the pack.

I'd like to trust that he listens but i don't know what he'd do if out with a pack of unrestrained lads.. especially given that his own father paid for him to be 'wenched' (have a woman rub his face in her breasts) at a recent festival they went to sad I'm fighting against that type of thing.. how can you win?

antsypants Sat 06-Oct-12 20:24:08

I was abused by my uncle when I was four, he was in his late teens, touching and a lot of language used, I didn't understand, did not like him and used to avoid him whenever I could, my mother caught him kissing me in an adult way once and still let him babysit.

I was abused by my step-father when I was 10, serious abuse, rape and physical bullying, I did not live with my mother, but was made to visit her and she worked nights in a bar and left me with him, my brothers were two and three years old so too young to witness or protect.

But all through my younger years, I realise now, was this theme of abuse, my parents (gran and mother) offered no stability or security, a lot of my childhood was spent moving up and down the country in homeless B&B's and refuges thanks to my mother, and in the B&B's you would get a lot of men who often tried to touch you up and get you alone, alcoholics, drug addicts and probably convicted offenders given the transient nature of the places... This was the late 70's and 80's so there was no the protection in place for children that there is now.

I have always been very aware of men's behaviour, even at 6/7 years old I knew the men to avoid and the ones you could say hello to, I would like to say that I had met more decent men than not, but it was not the case as a child and young person, now it is, but because I am choosy about the company I keep.

Despite this awareness, it hasn't protected me from the common assaults that women put up with, the groping, the assumption of interest in men you are not interested in, the pressure for sex, the pressure to consent even when you are not consenting... The last time I was seriously assaulted was five years ago by someone I thought was my best friend, I had known him for over 15 years and even he tried to force himself on me.

I thought it was because of my abuse, that I had something people saw in me, but I have realised over the past few years that it is an issue with society, we as a society give men excuse after excuse to touch someone without their permission, the 'cheeky' pinch on the bum, the 'sneaky' grope... But it is all overstepping boundaries, and there are always going to be people who push and push in order to get what they want, especially when there are no real consequences.

Pictureperfect Sat 06-Oct-12 20:30:49

Thankfully (can't tell you how thankful) I haven't in anyway. What really scares me is the amount of girls/women are sexually asulted but don't class it as that as they know people who have been through worse/because they weren't raped/because they 'led on' the person in some way (instead of seeing their right to say no at any time). A friend said about how she nearly had sex for the first time, she didn't, she was nearly date rapped yet a friend had been through worse so didn't see it as that. Maybe there needs to be better education for young girls as to what is assault and what is not in anyway ok.

wherearemyGOLDsocks Sat 06-Oct-12 20:32:40

OP YANBU,

'luckily' nothing happened to me during my childhood, but from my early adult yrs when I started going out I have been groped on my bum, crotch, boobs more times than I care to recall, mainly in nightclubs but a couple of times on the street too. To the pp who suggested we shouldn't put ourselves in certain situations, should I have given up my social life and never gone to another pub or club again! As it was I just got better at handling it and became quite adept at the belittling put down.

When I was 20 I woke up to my flatmates dp kissing me and putting his hand down my knickers. My flatmate actually saw him coming out of my room and accused me of sleeping with him. Fortunately she believed me when I told her what really happened and she kicked him out. What made me feel worse about it was that before I properly woke up and was still half asleep I was responding to him. I felt sick after. I actually blocked it out and only remembered about 10 yrs later when I heard he had died.

When I was on holiday in Greece at about 22, I was quite drunk one night and got separated from my friends and got got quite lost. I managed to find a taxi to take me back to the hotel, only he got his cock out and grabbed my hand and put it on it and tried to get me to give him a hand job. I managed to get out the taxi even more in the middle of nowhere. Luckily a much nicer man came along on a moped and took me back to town where I found my friends. I never told them what happened, I felt stupid for getting lost and 'putting myself in that situation'.

I have told my dh but none of my friends. To those pp's who think that none of their friends have ever been assaulted I respectfully suggest that you are wrong. Very few people talk about it.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 20:34:54

Just tonight as I was waiting in the traffic jam a man on a bus stuck out his tongue and waggled it at me! I was reading the advert on the bus when I noticed. It was definatly sexual.

pinkmoomin Sat 06-Oct-12 20:36:48

YANBU

I was molested by a pediatrician when I went for a routine hospital appointment for my heart murmur. My mum was sat unaware on the other side of the curtain screen whilst he fondled my chest and bottom with his hands and mouth. I was 9 years old.

I never mentioned it to anybody. Mainly because I didn't understand at the time I had been abused, and because it wasn't something that affected me and I quickly forgot about.

32 years later, with a 9 year old DD of my own,I feel great anger and wonder how many other girls he must have abused over the years.

This man was handsome and charming in a respected profession. My mum thought he was wonderful. No one could have possibly guessed.

The driver?

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 20:39:02

Just shock and angry at every single pist.

I believe you and wish I could wipe your memory of it clean.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 20:40:17

No he was a passenger, Hmm I was in my car with my DS. My DS is blind but he didn't know thst the pervert7

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 20:40:59

Post not pist obv. smile

antsypants Sat 06-Oct-12 21:07:17

I was just remembering, I came out of a club once, bit tipsy, and wandered away from the front door and there was a girl lying slumped, obviously unconscious and drunk, puddle of sick beside her, and two men taking photos on their mobile whilst another was undressing her and was unzipping himself, I shouted at them and they were quite aggressive, luckily not as aggressive as I was as a young one and I either shamed them or scared them away.

Afterwards almost all of my friends thought I was stupid, she obviously deserved it otherwise she wouldn't have got into that state and wouldn't have gone into the alleyway.

This is societies overall view I fear, that the victim is responsible in almost every way.

I have had similar to that, the bus thing.. i pulled over in front of the bus, jumped on it and gave the man who did it a shake 'waving your tiny penis at me out the back window, brave aren't you' Well it could have ended badly but i gave him a fright.
IME people who were giving it large have often stopped dead in their tracks when i've stood up out of my chair or something. Don't think they feel so intimidating when they're face level to a womans' chest.
If it was the driver i'd have been shock then a definate 'report the bastard'

Yesmeetoo Sat 06-Oct-12 21:33:43

I was assaulted by my uncle when I was about 9 ys old. I was in bed with my cousin-his daughter. Asleep. In my grandparents home. He came in to the bed. I was sleeping next to the wall, and my cousin was in between us. He moved her, so I was next to him. I pretended to be asleep while he touched me.
I got up very early and went to my parents, and slept next to my mother. I've never told her. I told my brothers but to be honest no one took it seriously.
I hate that I have never had the guts to confront him. I hate that my mother idolises him. I forever feel guilty that I never said anything. I feel guilty because my cousins are all screwed up. I am sure if he did it to me, he did it to them.
I hope every day that he dies a painful death.
I am 45 yrs old.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 21:43:53

Good for you Hmmm smile

Have ypu considered therapy? Yesme smile

BoffinMum Sat 06-Oct-12 22:14:31

We should mention the decent men who cross the road so you can be sure they are not following you, who make sure you have a lift when necessary, and who keep a brotherly eye on us when there might potentially be something threatening around the corner.

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 22:22:56

Yes thete are millions of decent men and women who do not sexually abuse but protect if necessary and thoughts like that are far from their minds.

SomersetONeil Sat 06-Oct-12 22:27:49

Yes, there are - thankfully - plenty of decent men. My father, uncles, FIL and DB, my DH who I can trust to (co-)raise our DS to be another one of them.

Thank goodness for them, and all men like them.

MummysHappyPills Sat 06-Oct-12 22:29:41

You are right, and abusive men are hopefully probably the minority - it is a shame that judging by this thread, the majority of women end up being victims though. sad

In light of this thread I've just had a 'talk' with my 2 eldest dds (14 and 9). 9 year old (thankfully) thought I was nuts and didn't really know what I was on about. 14 year old has never had anything inappropriate happen. I told them it doesn't matter who it is they should always tell me and I'll always believe them.
I got a bit of a rolly eyed 'mum is being a bit ott' response but hopefully they took it in.

Its not an easy subject to tackle but maybe we need to drum it into our Dc that it's never acceptable for someone to make them feel uncomfortable.

The trouble is, we also teach them to respect adults and do what they're told.

I hate how cruel the world can be sometimes.

And to you all sad doesn't cover it but for all the shitty men we come across, remember the good ones too.

dementedma Sat 06-Oct-12 22:42:01

Does this thread include husbands Pressurising for sex,who won't take no for an answer, who carry on regardless? Is this sexual abuse?

SoleSource Sat 06-Oct-12 22:42:46

Yes it is rape demented sad

And hmm - same here wrt height and stature. I get comments but the last time I was repeatedly groped in a club he got a hard slap across the face. I don't tend to get any trouble. I do feel quite physically strong so maybe that comes across too.

Seenenoughtoknow Sat 06-Oct-12 22:47:22

I was molested, and more, by my 18 year old cousin when I was 9.

At 15 I was also groped and forced against a wall and had my hand forced down the trousers of a lad a year older (and a LOT stronger) than myself. This man is now a policeman in my local area.

mirry2 Sat 06-Oct-12 22:51:51

Awful that so many of us were sexually abused by professionals in positions of trust. Upthread I mentione d a GP. don't know if I also mentioned the ambulance man who put his hands down my trousers for a quick grope while I was lying semi concious, but not so unconcious i didn't know what he was doing. I still lay there and let him do it; my mother was with me but had just got out of the ambulance and was waiting for them to take me out on a stretcher. This was over 30 years ago and is the first time I've ever told anybody. I was too polite to say anything at the time!

notmyproblem Sat 06-Oct-12 23:00:51

I think abusive men/sex offenders are prolific. Over a lifetime of ruining women's days/weeks/lives, they learn to judge who has been conditioned to accept it, and who is more likely to object, whether on the spot, or later on to the police/human resources/etc.

^ this angry

I was just reminded of a fascinating post I read a while back on predators and who they are. Really worth a read:
yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

Some quotes:

"Of the 120 rapists in the sample, 44 reported only one assault. The remaining 76 were repeat offenders. These 76 men, 63% of the rapists, committed 439 rapes or attempted rapes, an average of 5.8 each (median of 3, so there were some super-repeat offenders in this group). Just 4% of the men surveyed committed over 400 attempted or completed rapes."

And

"If we could eliminate the men who rape again and again and again, a quarter of the violence against women and children would disappear. That’s the public policy implication."

LiegeAndLief Sat 06-Oct-12 23:01:10

I have been groped in bars / nightclubs / walking down the street countless times - I grew up as a very pale blond teenager in south east asia. Honestly didn't bothre me, in fact as a young and stupid teenager it used to make me feel grown up somehow.

I passed out on the sofa at a house party once and woke up with someone's tongue in my mouth, which was revolting.

I was "properly" abused by a babysitter when I was seven. I think he might have done something to my brother too but I have never mentioned it because he was younger and if he doesn't remember I certainly don't want to remind him.

Having said that, I have also said no at the last possible minute to a man/boy I had only known for a few hours blush and he stopped. It was only the next day when the alcohol had worn off that I realised how stupid I had been putting myself in that position, I was lucky that I randomly picked a decent person.

I don't tend to get much trouble either. Saying that .. i've not been out socially for three years, since DS2 was born.

Don't know if things have changed much. Maybe i have, and will be less tolerant of funny stuff.

i'm not teetotal but i'm usually the completely sober or 'just a couple' person watching over the others.

I have spotted women that have been spiked or are too drunk to know what they're doing and have asked bouncers to seperate them from the man clinging to them. I look down with distaste on men who only seem to be able to 'get' a lady when she is incapable of rational thought or protecting herself, and actually aim to get her that way.

As i've said i have often been sat down when i've had some random man come up and try his luck, when i stand up they look like they wish the earth would open up under them .. I feel for other women who don't have that.. usually i tell my friends if i'm not around to point at the biggest man in the club and say 'thats my boyfriend' .. usually works.. but why should we have to?

vnb80 Sat 06-Oct-12 23:32:09

I was raped and beaten up when I was 17 by a bf at the time.

summerintherosegarden Sun 07-Oct-12 00:16:50

I'm utterly horrified by how prevalent sexual abuse is. I have obviously been living in a naive cloud.

I've never had any unwanted sexual advances; the closest I've come is being flashed, and that alone really shook me.

My heart goes out to all of you who have been through this.

BegoniaBampot Sun 07-Oct-12 00:17:14

Thing is it's not just the actual touching or abuse. It is a whole culture and people not wanting to speak out and make a fuss. Was at a friends family party, a big affair in a venue. Was sitting at a table with others and her brother (early 40's whose wife and kids were nearby) and a girl I knew (didn't even like her). The brother was making horrible, disgusting sexual comments to her (she was on her own like me) while she smiled it out. I ended up having words to him, telling him he was out of order etc - no one else said anything and he got quite nasty and I was left feeling like some killjoy though I still wonder what they others really thought as he was quite a strong and aggressive person. also when I was 19 and working in a small shop, the bosses brother (older married father of a daughter) used to enjoy making disgusting sexual comments to me to embarrass me and show off in front of the young apprentices. I never really said anything as I felt foolish and wanted to show he couldn't get to me - in reality I was disgusted and angry and wanted to punch him, shout at him if he would say the same to his daughter, how would he feel if older men did the same to her.

This thread just keeps bringing more and more instances to mind.

BratinghamPalace Sun 07-Oct-12 06:03:50

How do we change this?
Seriously, how? There must be some way, some steps that can be taken? Cultural norms can change. In the 50s your life was over if you were a single mother. Now - not at all. So we can change. So how do we change this?

BeyondLimitsOfTheLivingDead Sun 07-Oct-12 06:13:46

I have two boys, i'll do my best to bring them up to respect women well, everybody, but I do wonder if some sort of campaign is needed. Maybe to make the husbands, brothers and fathers out there aware of what a problem it is? Cause I'd bet they dont know!

CailinDana Sun 07-Oct-12 07:42:20

I think one of the first steps is to take away the stupid taboos we have around sex. I always despair a little when a poster comes on MN to say she doesn't know how to tell her 8/9 year old about sex. 8 or 9 is far far far too old IMO. At that stage it is absolutely guaranteed that a child will have picked up some misinformation from somewhere at the very least, and at the worst that they will have been subjected to some behaviour from a fellow child or adult that they didn't like but didn't understand. Children need to be taught the basics about sex and more importantly about personal space and inappropriate touching right from when they can understand a full sentence. Of course it has to be done in an age-appropriate way with the right level of language and not with the aim of scaring the child but with the aim of letting them know that they have the right to say no to any form of contact that they're not happy with and that they don't have to be "polite" about it.

On that note, I think it's important not to send young children that their personal space is worth nothing. Of course if a child is in danger or is tantrumming they might need to be bodily moved against their will. What I object to is a child being lifted off their feet for a cuddle or kiss they don't want. A child should be asked for a cuddle, not just grabbed and squeezed whether they want it or not.

On a more complex level attitudes towards women and sexuality need to change drastically. In spite of our now "liberal" attitude towards sex, underlying it all there is still the "slut" mentality. There is still the idea that if a woman is drunk, wearing skimpy clothes, walking alone etc she is "asking" to be raped - this idea even surfaced in this thread ffs. Women themselves need to realise that they never ever deserve to be assaulted in any way no matter what their behaviour. That will take a long time to come about because at the moment men are the still the "people" - the ones who can live as they like without questions and women are the secondary adjuncts who need to conform to the world men want.

CailinDana Sun 07-Oct-12 07:51:46

Sorry that should say "it's important not to send young children the message that their personal space is worth nothing."

Seenenoughtoknow Sun 07-Oct-12 07:53:28

I'm afraid this is only going to get worse with the gradual dumbing down of pornography in our society, 50% of which is viewed by under 18 boys.

There are plenty of articles on the net that explain how the viewing of pornography changes how men think of women and sex - how women simply become objects to be used...it is frightening, and according to a councillor friend of mine, is an epidemic waiting to happen. He said the amount of men visiting him for porn addiction alone has increased 300% in 10 years, and is now the most common sexual problem he deals with. It leads them down paths of infidelity within marriage, and to prostitution use, which is now becoming normalised behaviour on stag do's and trips away, and is far more prevalent than any of us would want to believe. As worrying is the fact that it destroys the young men's ability to make love to a woman without seeing her as an object for his own satisfaction, rather than a partner in love making. It basically changes the way they have sex, and it is very very difficult to reverse.

By allowing the red top papers to publish photo's of semi naked young women, we are starting this problem early, as they are on most kitchen tables most days. They teach young boys (who see their fathers sneaking a look whilst mum is out of the room) that it is okay for old(er) men to ogle very young women, and it teaches embarrassed young girls that they are only there as eye candy for men (including brothers / fathers / uncles).

Sadly, society is turning our boys into men who treat women this way because they think it's normal - every red top paper, every advert with semi naked females, every pop video, every accessible free Internet porn site is telling our boys that girls are there for their titillation and pleasure, and the lines of normal sexual behaviour are getting blurred beyond distinction.

I am not a feminist by the way, just a normal worried mother (who reads to much, and has asked questions of her professional friends based on what she has read, and is horrified by the answers), wondering how best to send her dc's into this world sad

TroublesomeEx Sun 07-Oct-12 08:13:46

My mother always told me growing up that women "brought it on themselves" if they got raped. I think I was in my early 30s before I actually really got it and understood that men rape because they want to, not because they can't help themselves. And certainly not because women 'ask' for it.

My mother also told me that I would end up having sex with men I didn't want to have sex with and that "all women do at some point" and that I would have to have sex with a man I did have sex with (e.g. partner) at a time I didn't want to because "all women do at some point".

When I was sexually assaulted by my sports instructor when I was 10 she didn't believe me and said "loads of kids go to him, that wouldn't happen". It was only when another child's mum phoned up and ask her if she'd had any concerns and told my mother what her daughter had said that she finally believed me. She didn't do anything though. Or apologise to me. She just said something along the lines of "Well Samantha's mum said the same so you don't have to go again".

When I was 18 I was out on a double date with my friend and her boyfriend and his friend who I'd never met. My friend and her boyfriend just disappeared (went to the bar together and just didn't come back!) and I left. The other lad dragged me behind the pub and tried to 'force himself' on me. I got away from him but it was nasty. I told my mother and her response was "well what did you expect to happen?" Well not fucking that!

My friend's dad pinched my bum when I was 15.

My mum's partner told me that he wanted to look at my tits to see who had the nicer boobs - me or my mum. Un-fucking-believably my mother thought this was funny and couldn't see the problem.

There are others. Nothing more serious. But just lots of low level stuff.

When I was in my 20s and going out to clubs. I just accepted I'd have my arse/tits grabbed by random men in clubs. I didn't see it as a problem at the time. But largely because I was of the belief/opinion that women were there for the taking and that if was just an 'occupational hazard' of being born a girl and that by being over 18 and out in a nightclub I was 'asking for it.'.

sad

I've got a son and a daughter. I hope I do a better job.

CailinDana Sun 07-Oct-12 08:40:14

Folk, it's just a pet theory of mine, and could be bollocks but I do think a lot of women who have had scary encounters like your were brought up by people like your mother. I think rapists/attackers do know how to seek out the women who have been given harmful messages by their parents and whose boundaries aren't as strong as those whose confidence and self esteem have been bolstered by kind parents.

My so-called mother's attitude to the fact I had been sexually abused when I was a child (I told her when I was 19) was that I should "get over it," and that I was "trying to make her feel guilty." Looking back I know her attitude that I didn't matter as person definitely affected me and definitely led to me getting into dangerous situations. That's not to say I was responsible for what happened, I absolutely wasn't, but if as a young child you're given the subtle message that anyone can do anything to you and no one will really care, it doesn't exactly encourage you to be strong and confident does it?

TroublesomeEx Sun