Article about strip clubs in the Guardian

[SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter]

Never read such a load of twaddle in my life:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/strip-clubs-new-normal

"Is it good or bad that for young men, going to a strip club is the new normal? I'd venture that it's a good thing. It's a place where they can step outside the anxiety-fraught dating scene and talk to a woman who, as long as he keeps tipping, will give him the time of day. It's a world where women parade around nude or nearly so in which doing so doesn't get anybody arrested or elicit gasps. It's a private room wherein a lap dance is on the table and a man expressing his sexuality isn't going to be met with a sexual harassment lawsuit."

Oh yes, because thanks to the feminazis it's now illegal to talk to women

Meant to add, thanks for sharing your story, it was interesting reading.

gah - last post was to Tittydancer.

Let's not kid ourselves. Men have always liked to see naked women. Forget about their personalities. Men just want to see naked women and will pay for it.

So a market exists. Some women are fully prepared to dance naked or to use their bodies to make money from men who are prepared to pay. Some may be trafficked but for many it's a perfectly free choice in a capitalist society. The market exists and it's easy money - if you're got an attractive body and are prepared to perform.

Unfortunately, the effect of this is to lead to women being seen as objects by many men rather than as real people.

A question to TD, in case she returns. What is you experience of the proportion of dancers who willingly do the job, versus the number of women trafficked or coerced into it? Is there an even split?

It's interesting to see the reactions to her post, compared to the reactions to posts of men who frequent the clubs. The sisterhood is alive and well

Thank you tittydancer for your insight.

I've already said I'm not a person who wants things banned because I personally don't like them and it is always interesting to hear the views of someone involved. I queried upthread why, if LCDs are OK they do not offer apprenticeships and a proper wages structure. That at least would provide some protection against the worst exploitation - at least until, I would hope, attitudes towards them change.

People say men are visual and attitudes will never change but society's attitudes change all the while. Take car seat belts - in the early 80s many people thought the regulation was intrusive and nannying. Now everyone wears them without a second thought. Take the banning of smoking in public places - quite a lot of resistance. Now no one thinks twice about the legislation. Take sexism, racism, gender inequality - all rampant when I grew up. Now, not eliminated, but widely accepted as being wrong and anti-social.

I would like to see that shift happen in relation to LDCs - not banned because a lot of us don't approve of them, but die out because they are simply not an acceptable form of 'entertainment' any more.

I think it is important that rather than us guessing at trafficked people we let someone who knows the industry comment.

Grimble, I would agree it is better to improve the lot of the dancers rather than ban them. I know unionisation is still in its early stages but if dancers stand against the owners then better working conditions should follow.

So if the dancers are less exploited that surely will make the venues more acceptable.

Sorry but I have 3 questions for TD

1. Do male dancers have it easier?

1. My neighbour has said the worst club of the lot for being grabbed is the candy bar in soho. The customers in there think they are very entitled, If you have worked there what is your opinion?

1. What do you think is likely to happen to dancers if clubs were banned and it went underground? I am worried that in "trying to help" we create more victims.

somerset well, yes, you do sound patronising lol. I was making comparisons rather than giving examples from my life. Men in my life are absolutely, fine, thank you. To quote you...nice, kind, decent people.
And talking about nice, kind, decent people...what makes you think they don't go to strip clubs?
In my experience men don't tend to tell their significant others that they have been to a strip club. Precisely because they're scared of reactions.
So they keep it quiet.
In reality, most (not all, but most) men have at some point in their life been to a strip club...it's not all city bankers and builders, you know. I've danced for young and old, intellectual and not so intellectual, left wing and right wing, hipsters and geeks, university professors and manual workers, Muslim, Christian and atheist, liberals and not so liberals, etc...
ALL kinds of men go to strip club. Just because they don't talk about it (or even actively deny it) doesn't mean they don't go.
If you think that it's just "less enlightened" men that go, you're very wrong. Or maybe all men are "less enlgihtened".
Sure, things have moved on, but to me that means there's more choice than before. So whether you want to be fully covered in burqa or participate in naked dancing on stage, you have a choice to do so (plus infinite number of other options that fall somewhere in between). Isn't that a great thing?
You made a comparison with racist, homophobic, etc...attitudes of past, but you missed one component which means that the comparison is essentially flawed. It's not in anyone's genetic make up to be racist, homophobic, etc...Rather those attitudes were reflection of society's norms at the time.
When it comes to sex industry, it is in men's genetic make up to look at women, to be visually stimulated, etc...
It is because of that that sex industry always existed and always will.
There won't be a shift in attitude when it comes to that as it would mean totally changing men's genetic make up and that ain't gonna happen. What might happen is that the format sex industry takes changes and shifts to certain extent, but it will never be completely eradicated.

sausage
When it comes to dynamic between a dancer and customer, it's a bit of both. For sure, dancer is exploiting the gullible guy's wallet and the guy also gets the satisfaction of a pretty girl dancing naked for him. As for who is in control, in my experience, it's always the dancer. Guy's a bit helpless in all of that, to be honest. He just sits there and does what he's told.
As for the male dancers, I don't know if they have it easier, I don't know any so I can't really comment on that. I would imagine they would make less money than girl dancers as women would rather spend their money on a good pair of shoes than naked guys. The ones that do make good money are the ones that dance in gay clubs. It's mostly men that spend on sexual entertainment.
Candy Bar, again, I cannot comment as I haven't worked there.
And, yes, you are right, the whole thing moving underground would be the worst case scenario. The safety net that exists now would simply be removed. I mentioned "private parties" already where touching is the norm. If industry moves underground anything would go. There would be much worse working conditions, but people would still dance. Banning is not the answer at all, more and more uniform regulations are the way forward, not banning.

namechange
The argument that we all hear over and over again is that some women are trafficked. Well, here it is once and for all, that's a load of made up bull wheeled out at all occasions to make up the arguments for pushing the agenda of anti-dancing brigade forward. I have danced for years and in all kinds of places...I have NEVER in my entire dancing career met ANY girls that have been trafficked or coerced in any kind of way into doing what they're doing. You ask if the split is even. The fact is there's no split. ALL the girls are doing it willingly.
Just because someone is foreign doesn't automatically mean they have been trafficked and that they are somehow less capable of making perfectly valid choices with their life. In fact, it's terribly patronising to assume so.
The fact is that a lot of girls are perfectly comfortable with their bodies and they are happy to use them in order to make a decent living. But I guess that is a very hard pill to swallow for some so they have to make up trafficking stories.
Trafficking exists, but not in lap dancing clubs and pubs.

Thank you, TD. Interesting stuff. Assuming that you are genuine - and I mention it because I am sure some people will be questioning your motives and truthfulness here - that is quite an insight into the LDC industry.

My concern with your profession was always tainted by the exploitation angle for the women involved. I don't think it's anybody else's business what goes on in private between two consenting adults.

Some people may have an issue with your idea that men are genetically pre-disposed to visual sexual stimulation to a greater extent than women. I don't know if this is true or not, but I imagine feminism might say that it is more likely to be due to men being allowed to get away with it, due to their privileged position within society. Then again, I look at marketing now. The male model images from stores like Hollister and A&F leave very little to the imagination, and they are aimed at young teen girls. So, in summary, I don't know , but I'd be interested to know what scientific research has shown.

One more question, if I may. Have you ever bumped into a client away from work and been recognised? How did they react? Do you find that men who know what you do treat you differently? Do you feel that it lowers their respect for you?

I think we should lay the myth that all men go to LDCs to rest - sure, maybe many different types of men go to them, but please don't make out all men go - they don't.

I've witnessed many men in various workplaces politely decline work nights out at lapdance clubs. I've also known 3 men (one of whom was my dh) on a stag weekend put up with the jeers of their fellow stags for not going to a strip club in Amsterdam. The 3 of them stayed in one of the bars drinking beer whilst the rest of them went off. They were treated as party poopers and there were many snide remarks on their return - in fact there was very nearly a mass falling out of a group of friends about it. But I was proud of my dh for doing that :) He loves women, but genuinely has no wish to see strippers.

Are there male dancers in LDC's?

grimble the problem with the 'what would you feel if your daughter was your lapdancer' line that seems fairly stock is, leaving aside your assumptions about how ( in this case me ) see sex workers is that it doesn't really make sense.

I say I'd be embarressed because I'd be in a sexualy charged situation, with god forbid my daughter. The same kind of embarressment as if she walked in on me having sex, or if we met on a blind date.

Obviously if it wasn't my daughter I wouldn't feel the same feeling as those feeling are based on it being my daughter in a sexually charged situation.

I don't really see the rational .

GetAll, the 'what about your daughter' thing is really more of a 'would you be happy to have her lapdancing for a living' thing, I think. The bumping into her aspect depends on whether you know what she does. If you knew she danced in a club, you wouldn't go in there! Which then makes me wonder if some people think that TD should be ashamed of what she does, or remorseful, or even if she has given any wider thought to her profession's impact on women in wider society (not my opinion, just to be clear).

The problem with that line of thought is that only grimble on here has said that she would openly question an LD who participates of her own free will.The rest are a mixture of shifting blame squarely on the punters and ignoring the wilful participation of women - mostly in the name of sisterly solidarity.

NCG

thanks. Yes I see. I guess the thing with me is that if my dd was a LD I wouldn't default to thinking she'd made a terrible choice. I'd assume she had reasons for doing so.

And in the same vein the reason I don't find myself condeming them ( not being a user of them ) is that I'm sure there are plenty of women who are quite happy with the set up. Those that have posted on these threads are generally supportive of them for reasons of pay and flexible working. I don't see enough good argument to take that away from them.

I think they should perhaps only be run by women, possibly be forced to 'tax' punters to pay for services for women. But I don't see they should be shut down or that the answer is as simple as removing demand.

I do wonder if TD's posts will stifle the debate in here, and maybe kill this discussion. It's one thing to put men down over an issue like this. It's a damn sight harder to argue with another woman. We shall see.....

Has she not been accused of being a man yet then ?

I don't know about male dancers in LDCs, sorry.

Obviously if it wasn't my daughter I wouldn't feel the same feeling as those feeling are based on it being my daughter in a sexually charged situation.

What I am trying to get at by using the daughter example and saying all dancers are someone's daughter is whether you - not you personally, the collective you - finding themselves embarrassed to be in that situation can have enough imagination as a parent to transfer that sense of embarrassment from your own daughter to the feeling other men would probably have over their daughters.

It takes quite a leap of compassion and empathy to do that - putting yourself in another's place - maybe that is a leap too far for many men who frequent LDCs.

Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion. Have a good weekend everyone.

Tricky Dicky's in Birmingham - 'for straight girls and gay men' - seems, from googling, to have died at least an internet death in 2007. Did it take off? Did it fold?

That still doesn't make sense grimble

The embarresment factor only exists because of the father daughter dynamic.

Tittydancer says she does not feel embarresed doing private dances, I'm sure she would if her dad turned up, but given her clients aren't her dad where is the inherant embarressment ?

The better question I guess is 'how would you feel if your dd was working as a LD ? '

For me personally it would depend entirely on the circumstance I wouldn't be embarressed of her job choice.

Sorry. I know I'm sounding pedantic.

If DD wanted to dance and she was making an informed choice then like any mother I would be worried but whatever choice my daughter makes I would back her 100%. The reason for the worry is the inconsistency of the approach by the clubs.

As to clubs with male dancers, not sure if wicked in blackpool or Lap Attack in London are still going but wicked was a combined club and Lap Attack was ladies only (googled male lap dancers).

Interested that it seems many men (TD did not say all, just most) will go and not be honest with their partner. For me the club wouldn't be the deal breaker the lying would. But if clubs would be a deal breaker then I could see quite a few men denying they have gone/ever go because of the worry about breaking up.

How do people feel now about dancers knowing that none are trafficked, sitting here quite smug about that one.

Sausageeggbacon - how am I trying to drive anyone off? It was a reaction to a comment - and it just seemed like a slightly ridiculous, button-pressing choice to pose. Lap dancing clubs ... or ... extreme violent porn. In whose world is it either/or of these two?!

Seriously, if I was a man, I'd be pretty bloody offended by that comment. It makes them seem like little better than caged beasts.

And yes, the old tried and true trick of asserting that all men go to LDC. All men go to strip clubs. All men use prostitutes, do they? All men like extreme violent porn, I suppose as well, do they? All men? Even most men do/use all of these...?

Not even all men drink alcohol. Not even all men like socialising. And yet there's a plethora of bars and pubs and restaurants to cater for the huge market of people who do like to go out and socialise. If all men go to LDCs, then why aren't there at least half as many LDCs as there are pubs, bars and restaurants in order to cater for the huge demand of all these men going to them?

We all know there are men who go to these places behind partners' backs - the threads pop up here often enough. I know enough of my DH's misspent youth and his past to know he's been as well. As I said, I don't live in some deluded bubble. But even allowing for all of this - it's patently a fallacy to state that all men go; that all men need SEVs in their lives. We'd be running out of women to do jobs other than stripping, if that were the case.

I understand that people on the pro side probably need to think that all men frequent. But it's patently not the case.

How do people feel now about dancers knowing that none are trafficked

Not sure how many times I have to say it, but my issue is with the bigger picture and the impact on women as a whole. Trafficking is nether here nor there when it comes to that...

Besides, we can't quite assert that no dancers are trafficked based on the posts of one person claiming to be a lap dancer on an anonymous internet forum.

You are going to great lengths to contradict something that no-one has said somerset. It's been suggested that all types of men go to LDCs, but nowhere that all men go to them. Are Tittydancer's post that painful that you are reading them too fast to understand what's been said?