Violence Against Women

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Just been reading this blog post which talks about women who Transition as violence against women. I agree with her.

[Warning from MNHQ - this contains graphic images]

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/transition-violence-against-women.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheDirtFromDirt+(The+dirt+from+Dirt)

I really don't think there's a danger of women's rights being erased by definition. Unless the fear is that all the men who are sexist bastards might decide to go for gender reassignment so that they can subvert the movement from within.

Kim, I can't possibly know what your life has been like. But good luck with your op, I truly hope that it will make you happier. I'm sure it will.

I will second that. I wish you all the best Kim.

Some posters forget in their desperation to uphold theory, that they are discussing real people and real situations.

I totally agree. Life would be a lot simpler if human beings conformed to some sort of text book definition. They don't.

Sorry Kim I didn't see this post:

"Most people on here know that I'm trans. I don't know why I feel this way. I can't explain how it started but I've been transitioning for several years and it's not an easy process. It does not just happen. I don't want to upset people or step on anyone's definitions. I just want to be happy and get on with my life. Hormone treatment has really helped my feelings and I cannot wait for the "op". But it is a long slow process. Lots of assessments."

"I face prejudice and discrimination because of who I am. I'm struggling to find a job - is it age or is it because I'm trans. Who knows?"

"Why the hell would I go through all this? Just for fun or because of a massive feeling inside that something is really really wrong."

"Then I read all this stuff on here and it's really upsetting. I can really understand the reasons people get upset by people saying "they feel like women". No ones that and it's arrogant to say that."

"All I know is that this is what I want and what I need to do. All that desperation and suicidal feelings have passed now. I might have really screwed up my life in terms of relationships and job prospects because trans people do face issues that others don't pass. No doubt some will say I have the benefit of male privilege - well reading the stuff on the sexism page, there is no doubt I have."

"I am happy with my decision. I don't know what I've become - except I have become me. And that is important."

"You can debate all you like but at the end of the day, we are real people with real issues. No doubt trans activists get on people's nerves and there are real issues that need to be addressed. "

"All I want to do is be me and try to be accepted."

I am sorry this thread is painful for you. And I don't want what I say here to hurt you, although I've no doubt it does.

blame "and screw any other marginalised people who get in the way?"

That is what transactivists do as they screw over women's rights.

BTW I wrote my post to Kim before your rude order that I should do so.

"And fgs its a tiny amount of people who choose to change."

And an even smaller minority of those who are making a BIG impact. They are organised, aggressive, misogynist and currently get to define the terms of the debate - even feminist debate.

I've got to leave to take a small hairy creature to the vets, but just wanted to pop in a few more things if I might.

Food Unit, you said, ". . . but a person denying the white/black binary that has been a historical justification for something as blatant as slavery, would be on very shaky ground with all the evidence to the contrary."

Ah, but my ancestors were all from North of the Mason Dixon line. Slavery was confined to the Confederate States. At least three of my ancestors fought in the Union Army to defeat the Confederacy and abolish slavery. What does slavery have to do with me?

All of those statements are true, bar the question at the end. Plenty of white folks in the US will claim that slavery was in the past and is irrelevant today. They'll point out that white indentured servants suffered slavery-like conditions. They'll insist that Africans sold other Africans into slavery, so it wasn't just white people were bad. There are as many "excuses" for denying the reality of slavery as there are white people who use them.

I totally agree that Aunt Rose was dead wrong in not accepting that African American women were "genuine" women like herself. But, her belief was unshakeable throughout her life, as perhaps yours is regarding trans people. Her beliefs were shored up for generations by laws, traditions, religion, the media, etc. Sadly, that's not yet been entirely erased.

I'm glad that as you say, "time is telling this suppressed truth about people of colour." I also hope that time will also "tell this suppressed truth about trans men and women."

"I really don't think there's a danger of women's rights being erased by definition. Unless the fear is that all the men who are sexist bastards might decide to go for gender reassignment so that they can subvert the movement from within."

It really is happening. Women can no longer meet in women-only space, rape crisis, women's shelters, and other women specific services and places of refuge from men without legal threats and challenges.

food, i am not going to get drawn into tit for tat with you. as you said, you know that what you are saying is upsetting at least one poster. but you don't care.

all for the greater good, eh? I'm leaving this thread again now, I only rejoined because of Kim's post and Kritiq's arguments. Ive no interest in conversing with bigots.

KRITIQ it wasn't the 'woman' bit your aunt Rose had a problem with, but the 'human' bit. This is where it diverges - because people of colour ARE people, you don't have to redefine 'human' or 'person' to include them. Completely changing the definition of man and woman to have nothing to do with reproductive dimorphism, is a completely different situation, with huge implications. Including the erasure of the hugely structured actual oppression of one sex by the other to the point it cannot be analysed or challenged.

"I'm glad that as you say, "time is telling this suppressed truth about people of colour." I also hope that time will also "tell this suppressed truth about trans men and women.""

What suppressed truth? That there is more than gender and reproductive sex-classification? Do tell me more...

"I'm leaving this thread again now, I only rejoined because of Kim's post and Kritiq's arguments. Ive no interest in conversing with bigots."

Bigot! a quick insult and you're off

Also, the truth can be painful, and I don't like hurting people for whom reality really hurts, but I don't think that's a reason to be silent on an issue that affects women in a forum about feminism and women's rights.

EleanorHandbasket

"Women can no longer meet etc...that's just not true.just because a handful of people have brought a handful of legal cases doesn't mean you need to campaign against Trans people loading what previous few rights they have."

I take it you have never faced a wall of transactivists, MRAs and handmaidens who work together to prevent women meeting then? It is organised and vicious.

"Its like saying that a few women murder children, so all women should be sterilised."

This is so far from what I'm saying I won't go there - since I know you are cooking.

yes, bigot. transphobic, whatever you want to call it.

its a shame, because ive usually agreed with your posts, but Im pretty shocked at the lack of empathy and respect that has been shown, not just by you, and feel very sorry for kim and any other transsexuals who may be reading this.

I cant help feeling that, in the desperation to uphold feminist theory, some posters have been wilfully cruel and offensive. The theory is interesting, and something that I am conflicted on, myself, and have never thought about in much detail, but some posts on this thread - again, not just yours - have been vile and hurtful. and you know it.

as I said, for the greater good, and at any cost.
I just feel its a bit too high a price.

"Completely changing the definition of man and woman to have nothing to do with reproductive dimorphism, is a completely different situation, with huge implications. Including the erasure of the hugely structured actual oppression of one sex by the other to the point it cannot be analysed or challenged"

If the oppression of women is rooted in sex class difference it sets up a sex class binary which can never be overcome unless we all morph into
a third sex class where there are no differences!

Now if having a "third" sex whether that be at some point in the future or whether you assume we already have with people who identify as Trans, we no longer have a simple binary opposition between two sex classes.

maybe that is not such a bad thing after-all?

Or is it that some self styled Radfems want to perpetuate the binary opposition that can never be overcome because the actually revel in victimhood?

They actually

"not just yours - have been vile and hurtful. and you know it."

I haven't written anything vile, although I admit it would hurt someone invested in transitioning. The worst thing I said, was about the horse thing, but that wasn't directed at transsexual people, just disagreeing that we can self-identify the categories we fit into (and I took it to an absurd level to illustrate it because being more subtle in previous posts wasn't getting the message across). If it were possible, then structural oppression couldn't exist.

I too have found myself diverging from people I have previously agreed with.

There are some horrible transactivists out there, and it is easier to understand radical feminists' attitudes to the issue when one is aware of the sheer aggressive nastiness displayed by some transactivists in recent years. The recent conference in Manchester (I think) which got shut down because transactivists objected to a single born women-only session for victims of sexual violence is a good example.

However, there does seem to be a willingness on the part of some radical feminists to see all trans people as a single malevolent and/or seriously disturbed group, and to deny their experience of life by an appeal to gender theory. I find this hard to take for the reasons Kritiq has given above.

"Now if having a "third" sex whether that be at some point in the future or whether you assume we already have with people who identify as Trans"

We already have 'intersex' people who are third sex. They are assigned as one or the other though.

"we no longer have a simple binary opposition between two sex classes. maybe that is not such a bad thing after-all?"

As long as the actual binary sex-based oppression had been eradicated then it doesn't matter how many sex-classes there are. Though it might be handy to have a word for 'woman' that was actually meaningful beyond a chosen identity - eg- in a breastfeeding support group.

Until that point, saying "transitioning erases structural oppression piff paff poof" is just window dressing of actual patriarchal oppressive relationships that follow the lines biological dimorphism.

I do understand your point wrt certain women-only spaces. in particular rape crisis centres, womens aid etc. but surely, the answer is to try to create a safe space for all, so that a M-F trans can get help for sexual abuse or violence without having women tell them that they are just suffering from a delusion or a psychological disorder, and men abusing them?

we can't demand equality for ourselves and to be treated with respect when we dismiss the feelings and needs of a group even further in a minority and also victims of oppression.

thats just how I see it.

"However, there does seem to be a willingness on the part of some radical feminists to see all trans people as a single malevolent and/or seriously disturbed group, and to deny their experience of life by an appeal to gender theory. I find this hard to take for the reasons Kritiq has given above."

I don't define all transsexuals as transactivists, and I know there are transsexuals who actively hate the way these people that are supposed to represent them behave.

But I think those transactivists have a very loud voice and their messages are picked up and reinforced by people who believe they are simply defending your ordinary Joe/Jane transsexual.

"patriarchal oppressive relationships that follow the lines biological dimorphism"

That is only if you believe that all oppression stems from this sex class binary opposition between Male & female. The fact is that it doesn't, which is WHY trans people are subject to abuse and discrimination.

"That is only if you believe that all oppression stems from this sex class binary opposition between Male & female. The fact is that it doesn't, which is WHY trans people are subject to abuse and discrimination"

That doesn't logically follow.

Acknowledgement of structural oppression along the lines of reproductive dimorphism doesn't preclude acknowledgement of structural oppressions along other lines such as race and class.

Late to the party a bit, but that article you posted previously FoodUnit about a male-to-female in a women's prison is written in a real Daily Mail esque style to garner as many shocked readers as possible. Reading between the lines isn't hard. In fact reading the actual lines is telling enough.

If you cba clicking: I asked if there were incidences of mtf trans trying to get access to women-only spaces. This article is about a rapist on a life sentence. He was pre-op trans (following an abusive childhood) and was raped repeatedly whilst in the men's prison, which resulted in him contracting AIDS. He castrated himself with acid whilst in prison. Now in a women's prison, partly for her own safety and partly because she has pretty much transitioned, causing catsbums all over the US.

From the article:

"In a letter to the judge, Masbruch said he was repeatedly sodomized while in the Texas prison and had contracted AIDS.
He also said he had “great remorse” for his crime and asked for forgiveness. His letter read: “In an attempt to make amends with my conscience, I have tried to castrate as well as remove my male sex organ.”

I don't think this is a brilliant example tbh, I feel very sad for her and think the women's prison is clearly the right place for her.

It seems like the transactivists have really got some feminists on the defensive, which seems so ridiculous. I don't get why they weren't allowed in, tbh - if their behaviour / motivation was dodgy, they could have been chucked out, surely? It does seem that all trans are being tarnished by the actions of a few, tbh.