Violence Against Women

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Just been reading this blog post which talks about women who Transition as violence against women. I agree with her.

[Warning from MNHQ - this contains graphic images]

dirtywhiteboi67.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/transition-violence-against-women.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheDirtFromDirt+(The+dirt+from+Dirt)

*The blog I linked to in the OP gives a lot of information. This blog also gives a lot of information. Some posts are opinion pieces and some are talking about research.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/*

I've already searched that blog for valid research to back up things you have stated in this thread and can't find it. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough. Given that this is an issue that affects people deeply could you provide a link to this valid research which proves the points you have stated in this thread as fact. You could start with one that proves that female to male people transition at a very young age. I just don't want to believe that you are playing politics with peoples lives.

OK Kritiq so you can't quote the words and sentiments you attribute to me on this thread. And you can't quote them because I didn't say them. I would appreciate it if you would take care not to put me in the position again of having to pull you up on speaking for me and misrepresenting me - it is becoming irksome.

It is such a shame that this section has taken such a kicking and that personal attack, strawmen and going after the label/poster rather than exploring ideas seems to be the prevailing modus operandi.

You seem to think that there are massive and insurmountable difficulties in accepting that one could shift sex, EBAL - there is in reality very little difference between the two, and if someone would prefer to live as a woman/man, why would you not want to allow them to do so?

There have been so many points and arguments brought up to you on this thread, and you haven't addressed any of them - I'd be interested in your thoughts on people born with both male and female genitalia for a start - if the sexes are in your mind so unique, so different, and womanhood is a thing on a pedestal that you either have or you don't, how do you explain the proven possibility of genetic glitches causing 'in-between-ness'? Yes, most people are either definitely male or definitely female, but you absolutely cannot deny that there is a grey area with sex, just as there is with just about everything, like sexuality, morality and so on.

Your refusal to accept grey areas is why you appear fundamentalist and as KRITIQ so eloquently explains, appear so faith-based in the manner of Beachcomber .

I'm not asking for academic explanations or research-based stuff, just an acceptance of the way people actually are, not for you to deny people's existence because it doesn't suit your politics.

Eleanor I actually care about these women who are being encouraged to have mutilating surgery and take hormones for the rest of their life that may damage their health. I wont be politically correct when I can see the harm this is causing to real women.

Of course intersex people exist. Although usually they can be clearly identified as male or female a very small number cant. That is different from people with gender dysphoria. Intersex is a clear biological condition where for example there are deformed genitalia. But those with gender dysphoria are not intersex.

And there are intersex people who detest and complain loudly that some Trans people constantly talk about intersex to justify the idea that gender dysphoria is real and not a psychological disorder. They complain of appropriation and say clearly they are very different conditions and one does not say anything about the other.

HoopdePoop would you care to quote where I have said something faith based or fundamentalist on this thread? (Something I said - not something Kritiq pretended I said)

I have said that I think feminism is and should be accessible to all women and that it isn't an academic subject. That women understand women's issues because they are our lived experience. I said it is great to read analysis but it isn't a requirement for being a feminist.

How is that faith based or fundamentalist?!

You see Kritiq, you making stuff up about me on this thread is causing mischief. Well done sister

EBAL - I hope you are ok and not getting upset by the ganging up and personal attacks on this thread.

Beach thank you but I am totally fine. I find the excuses here for manufactured attacks fairly amusing actually. But thanks for your concern, it is appreciated.

EBAL - I hope you are ok and not getting upset by the ganging up and personal attacks on this thread.

Perhaps if you want to support her Beachcomber you could provide some facts to back up some of the statements that she has made in the thread like that female to male people transition at a very young age. Asking somebody so opinionated for evidence isn't ganging up. All that she has said might be true but I just want to see the evidence. is that wrong?

Furthermore I am going to say what I think many other posters are thinking. That that EBAL is posting threads that highlight the difference between radical and liberal feminists to be deliberately provocative. Why would she do that? Who does it help? Not feminists that's for sure.

Unfortunately I can't find the link (if I do, I'll post it later,) but some months ago, I read a very interesting article regarding the motivation of many "pro life" campaigners and demonstrators. I'll paraphrase what I can remember below.

The article said that they genuinely believed they were doing the right thing ethically in trying to stop women having abortions. They felt sincere in their belief that such women were risking serious harm to their physical and/or mental health and hadn't been fully informed of the risks. They often quote "research" and testimonies of women who've said they've suffered lasting damage from having abortions. They don't despise those who seek terminations, but believe they are succumbing to pressure from others - partners, doctors, activists, wider society - or are just misguided in thinking an abortion will solve their problems. They freely suggest what they see as "viable alternatives" to abortion and believe they are morally justified in intervening in the personal choices of individuals for the greater good of society.

The article then goes on to describe the position of those feminists who oppose medical or surgical treatment for transgender people. As one might guess, there are quite a few similarities with the above in terms of rationale for their beliefs and how they attempt to translate these into action.

Lots of women take contraceptive pills. The medical advice is that you only take these for a set number of years and often not beyond a certain age - even if you still need a contraceptive.

Trans women who want to be men have to take these hormones for the rest of their lives. Nobody has any idea what the effect will be of taking testestorone for a woman for many years. If you start taking it when you are 20, by the time you are 60 you will have been on it for 40 years.

Since nobody knows what the long term effects will be, this is medical experimentation.

Kicks off with an appeal to read an article from a blog with a very trans critical viewpoint.

Follows up as a "sort of" medical expert, who's unfamiliar with citation or precis.

Recaps other threads and tries to refight arguments already unsuccessful...

Revisits level of awareness of feminist theory.

If this poster was a man, most readers would suspect them of being deliberately disruptive.

[In passing, I'm pleased Beachcomber highlighted the points below:

Radical feminism is straightforward and simple - you don't need to be well read or any kind of expert to get it.
Women don't have to learn about women's issues - we live them and experience them. Feminism has never been an academic subject.

Of course there is brilliant feminist analysis, that puts into words in an incisive, trenchant and coherent manner what many of us experience and feel - and it is vital that women can read and use that analysis if they want to.

But you can have a strong 'handle' on feminism without ever having read any texts. Thank god.

I imagine that has saved an awful lot of women and awful lot of time. I'd add there are very few things in life I've instinctively got without some study. I'm pleased that isn't the case for some women and feminism.]

To be fair, there are many people who are required to take medication for long periods or for a lifetime. My nephew diagnosed as diabetic at age 8 will take injections of the hormone insulin at least daily for the rest of his life. A friend from colleague who had a total hysterectomy at age 21 due to cancer is only now "coming off" hormone replacement therapy at the time when she probably would have been going through the menopause otherwise. My eldest sister has a dodgy thyroid and has been on the hormone thyroxine for about 30 years now.

There are risks involved in taking hormones or any drug for a long period of time. As time passes though, more evidence amasses to refine treatments, to reduce the negative side effects while optimising the therapeutic effects. Hormone therapy has been given to transgender people since the 1950's, so the concept isn't exactly new and there have been plenty of opportunities to study the longer term effects.

Eats
You didn't answer my question about the 90% who were happy. Or the reasons for the 10%being unhappy (that I think Kim asked)

And again - you are making bold statements about a sensitive issue without backing them up with facts.

If I were to go on a thread about vaccinations and say they were harmful, then I would be asked to provide EVIDENCE of my claim.

A blog that presents a one sided view of the issue is NOT evidence.

I could present my blog as evidence of pro-choice, but it is of course just as biased as a anti-choice blog.

A blogger collects links and evidence that backs up his or her viewpoint.

onemorechap - You do know there are some nice MRA sites you might enjoy?

Eats
I would so like to ask some of the women you are 'representing' here. And ask them what they think.