Where did all the Feminists go?

[Portofino]

MN seems to have had a reorganisation of FWR when I was on holiday and me no-likey. Why do we now have a Rad fem section and Feminist light chat. So many of the dynamic, knowledgable and interesting posters have disappeared. I have to say that some of the more radical stuff posted really made me think about my views and re-align them. There doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. I am disappointed to be honest.

beach's post is the same as SaF's deleted post. If something has been deleted for being a personal attack and a lie, posting it again comes awfully close to goading, IMO.

"But putting woman and girls first and wanting to overthrow the patriarch does make many feminists extreme in many women and men's eyes."

I think that's what I mean. Because I sincerely think that feminism isn't about putting women and girls first but about putting everyone equal, and I do also genuinely believe that there are some ways in which boys suffer from the big P in the way that they're socialized.

I don't think its detracting from the multitude of ways in which girls are subtly (and not so subtly) oppressed whilst boys are favoured, to point this out.

Obviously the way they're socialized is down to the misogyny inherent in P but that doesn't mean that it's not bad for them. Because not all boys are destined to be Alpha males on top of the hierarchy that P has created.

Ah.

Plus ca change

One of the reasons that the paddling pool thread was started was that many more established posters on the boards disliked being put in the role of educators and were quite specific as to why they thought explaining feminism 101 wasn't what ought to be happening.
So a few patient feminists offered to shoulder the burden, and yet another little shoot sprang up.

I agree messy.

The patriarchy makes life shit for each and every one of us, even those at the top of the heap (other than materialistically)

I agree, messy. I don't think putting women and girls first in everything, is a feminist view.

OTOH putting women and girls first some of the time, in the context of the misogynistic society we live in where the reverse is more often true, is feminist. I get really fed up with explaining why running, say, a woman's writing course is not sexist - it's an antidote to the huge dominance of men's writing everywhere else!

I don't think it should be seen as shouldering a burden. Just because you're not as far along your feminist journey doesn't mean your views should be dismissed. That for me was the crux of the problem with FWR in it's old form

I agree blistory.

I think it should be fine to say 'start a new thread' or 'I've started a new thread on this', but not fine to be furious with someone for asking what they don't know is a basic question.

But then of course we get into MRA tactics, which is where this whole thing started to go south. Because the MRAs know perfectly well how it all works, and they rock up asking their 'simple questions' and using them as a tool to start endless stupid arguments. And it is understandable people get fed up with that.

MsRisotto, a lot of them moved to new boards, and joined new women's groups. I think MN helped a lot of people make more connections with feminists more widely, not just the ones on here. So new groups have emerged from it with a mix of people from MN and from other areas of feminism.

They're not all on secret FB groups! The admins shut the MN feminist group down when a lot of feminists left MN - it was becoming increasingly pointless having an MN feminist group when quite a few of the people on it had no connection to MN and had never posted on here in the first place. Although I think FB is a great way of sharing news and information, but you don't need a group to do that - people can just post links on their wall.

I think it is actually a good thing for MN feminist section because it allows new people a space to make use of and do what they want with. We always need spaces for new people to have discussions and make new connections.

Btw, I think it's not just about where you are in your journey, or how new you are to feminism - that implies that you'd only ask questions or disagree about the basics if you were new and inexperienced, which isn't the case.

There are several very established posters I can think of who're perfectly content that they've worked out their mature views of feminism, and who still disagree with each other. It doesn't mean they need to go back to feminism 101, or need to be patronized about it.

I often pointed out that on the SN boards, newbies or those with very basic questions were treated with polite responses, and all the help and support that could be given. No one said 'FFS, that old chestnut again, we're not here to educate you, go read Tony Attwood's book instead'
It shouldn't be seen as a burden, but it often seemed that way. The exceptions were always the same posters who had patience and confidence.

The 'nasty man hating' feminist thing kind of comes from the 'overthrow the patriarchy' rhetoric, doesn't it?

I'll admit it puts me off. I'm not really a revolution type of person. And like Blameit, I don't want women to be no 1. I want equality.

Beach
We have gone past that and are having rather a fascinating discussion on feminism so if you wouldn't mind buggering off, that would be lovely.

beach, your post might go because you're not telling the truth.

Ask MNHQ what happened, they will tell you.

It is not remotely plausible they would ban someone for trollhunting a bereaved mother then let her back in with an apology, is it? Yet Artex was let back, so maybe you should consider that you've been fed a pack of lies.

Agree LRD but because we actively went after the MRAs, lots of interested women got caught in the cross fire and turned against feminism. Ignoring is difficult but sometimes needs to be done.

The bereaved mother thing is new to me.

Weirder and weirder. I have forgotten all the shenanigans (probs a good thing). But I do remember my favourite bit - someone saying, "But I went to Disneyland."

The problem with radical feminism as I see it is that it is just as oppressive as the system it seeks to overturn. Certainly those who post in favour of radical feminism over here don't seem to actually acknowledge a stance of "it may be a bit more complicated than", but just go for straight forward black and white. And anyone who doesn't follow 100% gets attacked for being MRA/handmaiden or patronised for allegedly not having understood what's going on.

I don't like abolitionism, but I don't think that makes me less of a feminist.

blistory - yes, I know. It isn't easy.

But I do think people sometimes hold feminists to a very odd kind of high standard, and assume we're the hive mind. You constantly get posters insisting that 'the feminists' are all horrible because one person was rude to them once on a bad day, or because an MRA troll had a rant at them in the feminism section.

I don't have a problem at all with radical feminism - just a problem with posting style of some who consider liberal feminism not worthy.

Blistory, yep, the "its my way or the highway" thing is alienating.

This is just all so ridiculously disingenuous though.

Regardless of who has lied to whom about what, and who thinks they know the truth about what, there were two FB groups - many of the people who were in one have now left. There are now a lot of people from the other FB group, including the OP, asking why they all left on this thread.

It is just silly.

What are you doing it for?

What is the point in going through any of this again?

The whole thread seems like goading to me.

If you have concerns about where a particular poster is, for example Sakura, who left maybe a year before the board reorganisation so presumably did not leave while Portofino was on holiday, why don't you just contact her and ask her?

I do not see the point in blaming it on MRAs or whoever - if you want to know why a particular poster left, contact them and ask them. Ultimately MN is just a board, and people find other things to do. I don't know anybody who feels they've been silenced - they're just busy elsewhere.

Oh I'm very aware that people don't want it talked about Mme Lindor.

I shall now do as I'm told by you (are you a mod?) and bugger off again so that useful feminist discussions can happen and nobody mentions troll hunting in an inconvenient way.

If I hang around much longer the clean up squad will arrive anyway.

And around around we go!