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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Where did all the Feminists go?

698 replies

Portofino · 22/09/2012 19:43

MN seems to have had a reorganisation of FWR when I was on holiday and me no-likey. Why do we now have a Rad fem section and Feminist light chat. So many of the dynamic, knowledgable and interesting posters have disappeared. I have to say that some of the more radical stuff posted really made me think about my views and re-align them. There doesn't seem to be much of that anymore. I am disappointed to be honest.

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PlentyOfPubeGardens · 24/09/2012 19:07

This thread's turned out really interesting Smile

DP and I were getting trollied and talking shite putting the world to rights recently and one theme that kept coming up was the scale of communities, which is a point I think Hully raised a couple of pages back.

What we thought was this - there will always be an amount of inequality but if you are one of the ones amassing obscene amounts of goodies and you live in a community small enough that you have to face your neighbours, who you know, and who are having to choose whether to eat or heat, while going about your day-to-day business, you are likely to feel shame, which may prompt you to redistribute a portion of your wealth.

The bigger communities get, the more divorced people become from those in different income brackets until, with a globalised market, the poorest people at the bottom are on the other side of the world. You don't feel shame (in the same way) because you don't know them. It's too easy to just shrug and carry on when poverty is either not in your face, or you live in a community so large (eg a city) that you don't actally know any of the poor people around you.

We decided that the ideal community size is one where the richest and poorest buy their milk and newspaper in the same shop - i.e. a small village. Above this level, shame ceases to function because you are dealing with essentially strangers.

Clearly this is completely impractical in today's world (and there are all sorts of other holes you could pick in the idea - it was just a pub blather) but ... it's an argument for greater local community involvement at all levels of society, an argument for a good mix of housing in all areas (and against the govt.'s HB reforms which will see poorer people pushed out of wealthier areas), an argument against gated communities ...

Also, wrt small communities, I've lived in a couple of communes and I think it's only on that very small scale that communism works. Crucially, everybody there is living communism voluntarily and it is possible to kick out freeloaders.

And so to the family - from each ... to each ... is surely how a well functioning family works, no matter who brings home the bacon and who cooks it.

Portofino · 24/09/2012 19:15

But in reality childcare is expensive and people on low/medium income cannot afford to pay for one or more children. It therefore makes sense that whoever earns the most works FT and that the other doesn't work, or works PT around the childcare. It seems to work out in MANY cases that this is the woman.

Alternatives?

Subsidised child care?
Flexible working for both partners enshrined in law?
Changing the attitude of the workplace so that you go home after you have done your contracted hours?

I see ALL of these thing in Belgium - and incidentally I was interested to see that they have a GINI index the same as Sweden - low. But high taxes!

And yet they have a low % of women in the workforce. Still. I guess is because of family friendly tax policies and child benefit that increases for each child.

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Portofino · 24/09/2012 19:20

And the Belgians are more conservative and probably value traditional roles to a greater extent....

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scottishmummy · 24/09/2012 19:43

lol,at spending time humoring me.and reporting posts to mnhq
you may not like my posts or pov but well that's kinda tough
yes if you're preoccupied and habitually reporting I expect mnhq are sick of it

Portofino · 24/09/2012 20:35

SM it would help no end if you actually posted an opinion on the ongoing discussion rather than making snarky comments. You must have a genuine opinion or POV on these topics SURELY?? Or why would you care?

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Portofino · 24/09/2012 20:38

I am most interested in why Belgian women don't work when they can. Issues that exist in UK don't exist here.

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KeemaNaanAndCurryOn · 24/09/2012 20:39

She has opinions
Some more interesting than mine
Let her speak them here

MarshaBrady · 24/09/2012 21:07

this free market programme is on and quite timely. Although I am watching a soppy movie. Might watch it later.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 24/09/2012 21:45

On the subject if small communities, Dunbar's number suggests the optimal size of a human group is about 150.

Xenia · 24/09/2012 22:01

Israeli communes these days often let people keep their own money ans the older ideals are harder to make work.

On women today I just read this in Style magazine.

Thank goodness most normal British women with careers and no money or time or inclination for too much beauty stuff are not like this article in Style magazine:

" E verybody?s talking about the new HBO comedy drama Girls and how it?s going to blow our minds. Even though it doesn?t air here until October, this is the most eagerly anticipated TV show since Sex and the City, only it makes SATC look like Dallas. The series, focused on the lives of four twentysomething college graduates living in New York, is written and directed by and stars the 26-year-old Lena Dunham, who delights in skewering every humiliating detail of her imperfect life, from the lousy internships and anxious parents (still paying for the BlackBerry contracts) to the STDs, sex texts and the hours spent self-obsessing. If you want to talk about where young women are now, in 2012, and how we got here over the past decade, then this is where you should start.

The girls in Girls are not really girls, of course, they are young women stuck in pre-adult limbo, waiting for life to kick in, and they definitely aren?t shopping for Jimmy Choos or meeting up for cosmopolitans. ?Girls is not aspirational,? says the executive producer Jenni Konner. ?We are trying to show the truthful version of what young people are dealing with trying to find a place in the world, people who think they are entitled to the world that Sex and the City promised them, which no longer exists.?

If this sounds depressing, it?s actually the opposite. Girls feels like a refreshing shower after a long, sweaty party that left everyone feeling empty, dirty and a bit used. You can watch the show as a confessional slice of contemporary life, but you can also see it as a turning point, the moment when a generation stripped away the bullshit and took a long, hard look at what it really means to be a young woman now.

To get some perspective on where we are, you need to rewind 10 years to 2002. SATC still has two years to run, as does Friends. We are talking about a world where ordinary girls aspire to buying a new designer bag twice a year, a climate in which a generation brought up on the Spice Girls and SATC assumed that they would work hard, play hard and have money to blow on clubs and cars, holidays and flats. At the start of the decade, it was okay to be single and ambitious, okay to be unmarried and childless. We were the demographic who were experimenting with suiting ourselves, in our twinkly flats with the stripped floors and the wardrobe full of clothes. Our role models were Sienna Miller and Kate Moss, glamorous, sexy consumers with no responsibilities and no interest in settling down. If men were disappointing, we had Rampant Rabbits, we had our friends and we had time. If we had one niggling worry, it was that we hadn?t quite figured out when we would stop to have children, or who with, but (and you have to dig deep to remember how this felt) it was still cool to be single, thrilling to be part of a generation who had elected to delay conventional commitments so that they could have more of everything. As the decade wore on, I had friends who were single mothers, friends who were drunk every night, and friends who were closeted at home with three under-fives. It really felt that women were having it all ? not in the Shirley Conran sense, but in the sense of unlimited choice.

Cut to the present day: the world is in recession and the successors to the SATC generation are entitled, but confused (what happens if you can?t support your independence? What does that mean for relationships and children?). The economy is flatlining and the culture is sending out mixed messages to the female sex. Kate Middleton is the No1 role model of young women (silent, decorative, surrendered). The alternative is Rihanna (sexually liberated, supersuccessful, but seemingly emotionally dependent on a boyfriend who beat her). We have Kristen Stewart, one step from being stoned as an adulteress for having a fling with a married man, and, meanwhile, a groundswell of support for the punk protesters Pussy Riot.

Looking back, this has been a decade of extremes: there was the rapid ascent of Katie Price, aka Jordan, the woman who helped to cement the idea that it doesn?t matter what a woman does, so long as she gets paid. And then there was Lisbeth Salander, fighting back with her tattoo gun. There were Wags, selling the idea that if you can get a Premier League footballer to set you up with a bank account and a Cheshire mansion, who cares how he treats you or how much surgery it requires? And there was Adele, dazzling and damned if she was going to shed half a stone to please any man. In no particular order, we have worshipped Gaga and Sarah Lund, Angelina Jolie and the blank canvas that is Pippa Middleton. The message is still ?It?s your choice, your life?, but what you really notice in retrospect is how the extremes have encouraged perfectionism to creep into the picture, until perfectionism has become the overwhelming priority. It?s no longer enough to look good, you have to be cover-girl immaculate. It?s no longer enough to be a mother, you must be yummy and have a little internet business on the side. You?ll get points for your brilliant career, but only as long as you have lots of kids, a dog, a beautiful house and make sure you look hot in the office.

Since 2002, we have seen the explosion of what?s referred to as grooming, but should be called repression by beauty treatment ? the obsession with hair straightening, skin spraying and generally airbrushing yourself into an acceptable clone. Not being allowed to get older happened in this decade. Not being allowed to have any body hair. And, of course, we?ll always remember the Noughties for the culture of not eating, which has become even less taboo in the past few years. As Lily Allen says, from her home in the country and having happily put her skinny ?unhappiest? days behind her, ?I am always quite taken aback at how open girls are about not eating and not wanting to eat. Before, they at least hid their anorexia, now they wear it with pride.?

Back in 2006, Natasha Walter started writing Living Dolls: The Return of Sexism, warning of a generation willingly conforming to an unrealistic ideal of beauty and sexual availability. Two years after publication, the book feels more relevant than ever. ?I think the situation is getting worse,? she says now. ?In mainstream culture, there is so much objectification and so much pressure for girls to feel they haven?t succeeded if they don?t measure up.? Of course, it?s all been a bit of a laugh ? the ball boobs, the Brazilians and the Botox, Cheryl Cole?s hair extensions, the Towie girls? fake everything, the sex texting and tweeting ? just girls exercising their freedom of choice. Yet there is no denying the slide into judging each other the way men used to judge Miss World contestants ? only now the ideal is rooted in porn.

The decade that began with a frank, weekly discussion of how to improve our sex lives in SATC has somehow ended up being all about what girls have to do for men raised on the extremes of internet porn. When Naomi Wolf talked to students while researching her new book, Vagina, one of their biggest health concerns was anal fissures. Emma Forrest, the author of Your Voice in My Head, regularly receives letters from girls who hate what they are expected to do in bed. She believes that internet porn has dramatically altered the way the sexes relate: ?It is incredible the different experience of girls growing up among boys who have access to 24-hour porn, compared with us, who had boys who struggled to find their dad?s Playboy.?

If you?re old enough to have dodged the porn legacy, chances are you haven?t escaped the geisha effect. I?m talking about the way women are expected to perform like men at work and then like geishas at home, in their Cath Kidston pinnies, with their decorative (four, ideally) children. As well as learning to walk in stripper shoes and counter the chafing of a thong, this was the decade when our domestic abilities were held up to scrutiny (better learn to make cupcakes, if you want to be a contender) and motherhood became a kind of sacred calling with its own militant activists. Remember the scorn poured on Lucy Worsley for her guilt-free comments about childlessness? It?s a testament to the hope we felt back in 2002, the confident expectation that life was about a whirlwind of jobs and boys and a lot of things besides marriage and breeding, that I and a few of my friends neglected our biological clocks and didn?t have children or got trapped in the cycle of IVF. But at least we didn?t feel we had failed at everything.

Little did we know that, a few years down the line, the price of unlimited choice would be unlimited pressure, that it would ramp up expectations so that women started to feel they were only as good as the one thing they weren?t doing well, or not doing at all. These have been funny years for feminism, as the sisterhood turns in on itself and demands perfection across the board: the perfect man, the perfect children, the perfect house, the perfect body, the perfect sexual technique. ?I?d say my generation is pretty f*ed up,? Allen says. ?They are always beating themselves up and trying to live up to this ideal, and you only have to look at the media to see why.?

Which brings us back to Girls. There is no perfection in Girls, no attempt to airbrush reality or pretend that you can have it all while looking like Gwyneth Paltrow. Perhaps most significantly, Lena Dunham is no beauty, with the kind of not-great body that you see everywhere in real life, but never naked on television. Ask Jenni Konner what has been the most controversial aspect of the show and, hilariously (because this is a show featuring anal sex and crack cocaine), she will tell you it is Lena?s frequent nudity: ?It is shocking to me how shocked people are by her showing her real body.? The girls in Girls are not fabulous, as they were in SATC, but they?re all looking for independence and intimacy, success and love. It?s the same story that it was 10 years ago, minus the unrealistic expectations.

Besides Girls, there have been other signs of a new appetite for real women and real achievements, as opposed to candy-coated fantasy. Over the summer, we all discovered that you can be a heptathlete and an Olay model, but that the former is a lot more exciting than the latter, and it?s been a genuine turning point. Jenni Murray, on Woman?s Hour, took umbrage at Victoria Pendleton describing the games as the ?Girly Olympics?, but on this occasion she was wrong. ?There has been a fear of powerful women,? said the sports writer Laura Williamson in defence of the girly word, ?and what these games have shown is that you can be whatever you want to be. You can put on a vest and shorts and box and do the heptathlon or put on mascara to walk the dog.? The power is in being true to who you are. It?s not about being superwoman. When the Spice Girls rocked up for the closing ceremony, more glamorous than in their heyday, it sealed the message with a wink. Girl power comes in many forms ? it?s Posh and it?s Pendleton and it?s Penny from next door who is coping with three kids since her husband legged it ? and now we just might be ready to grasp it. "

madwomanintheattic · 24/09/2012 22:49

So, 'dream stuffing' for 2012, then? It's a fairly depressing summary of the last ten years.

Finding Pube's stuff fascinating, as well as the Dunbar's number stuff. Have always been v interested in community from a social and support perspective, but hadn't really bother to address in economic terms other than basic issues wrt taxation and welfare support.

Can I come to the pub with you, pubes? Grin

Belgians. I got nothing.

scottishmummy · 24/09/2012 23:21

shall I do you an exec summary op,not sarky def factual
apparently it's tiring reporting me et al to mnhq for our posts
I support ethical capitalism, but know it can be an oxymoron.capitalism is flawed but I support it.I believe women need to be represented and participative in workplace,and not over represented or sidelined in domestic domain

Himalaya · 25/09/2012 07:54

Are celebs really that influential? Jordan and Angelina Jolie and the Spice Girls etc.. seem like such minor characters in my life. I'm much more influenced by the folks I know and see around me. Even by you folks Grin than celebs.

scottishmummy · 25/09/2012 08:13

susceptibility to societal pressure and role models varies by individual
of course we all intuitively prefer to think we independently chose and act in free will
but culture,society,class,media all influence.and sad as it is Kate price and other plastic titted schlebs have some influence and impact

amillionyears · 25/09/2012 08:38

Agree with sms last post.
Hate to mention a county,but Essex does seem to live up to its own image.

vezzie · 25/09/2012 09:41

Seriously, feudalism is the answer? because the lord of the manor will feel guilty and dish out an alright xmas dinner or something?

Small communities.... oh yes known the world over for their exciting diversity and fostering of difference. I would love to be an avant garde lesbian sculptor in a village of about 150 people, that would be the perfect community for me I'm sure, where the poor live next door to the rich, which historically oh yes has always shamed them into giving up their estates.

This is where liberalism falls flat on its stupid nice-but-dim face, this sort of blithering ozric tentacles fantasy drives me nuts.

Xenia · 25/09/2012 10:01

Small communities are dire. Your neightbour nkows who came round to your house for sex the night before. They police and control how you operate. They are the villages in the middle east where girls are stoned to death. No, large anonymous connurbations where talent will out, meritocracies like the melting pot of London are the wonderful things in which women and men of all kinds can thrive if they are prepared to work hard.

However most of us are glad we live in an England where people are free to set up their own small communes or buy a big house with friends or live with 3 generations of relatives or be within a group of the Bretheren or lesbians or whatever floats your boat.

Himalaya · 25/09/2012 10:03

I'm with Vezzie.

Hullygully · 25/09/2012 10:07

ok small communities a bit of a horror.

Who wrote about hubs recently? In one of the Sundays? It was a good idea: hubs that offer schools with beofe and after care, food and activities, on the same site as a GP surgery, a workplace, a cafe etc etc. I thought that was a good idea.

MarshaBrady · 25/09/2012 10:08

Exactly I'm sure the lord in his country manor regularly handed out bread to the poor as they passed in the street and then put up a huge barrier to keep them out. Sounds grim.

Bigger communities offer much more opportunity.

MarshaBrady · 25/09/2012 10:12

In a recent Berlin exhibition on living spaces loads of architects in 60s etc imagined space like hubs. They become too cut off and insular too. Probably the same theory that influenced estates with pathways linking lots of people.

These were designs of immense separate populations

vesela · 25/09/2012 10:17

Yes, there's a big downside to the function of shame in a small community.

Himalaya - I think many celebs, out there in the public eye, can actually be a positive force. It's things like internet porn that are fostering the most pernicious type of conformity, and that's not really a celeb thing...

MiniTheMinx · 25/09/2012 10:21

This makes me think of my father, growing up in a small village where the toffs expected people to step out of their way, took up all the front seats in the church, policed how often their workers attended on a sunday and dispensed toys to all the children at Christmas to atone for their horrendous behaviour all year. I have to say he has improved as time has gone on Grin

Why do bigger communities offer better opportunities? Surely it has more to do with travel and better infrastructure. I work from home in the middle of nowhere, that's what the internet is for.

vesela · 25/09/2012 10:32

Hully - Caitlin Moran in her webchat here? (hubs)

Hullygully · 25/09/2012 11:14

could well have been vesela, yes!