Should it be illegal for men to pay for prostitution?

[EatsBrainsAndLeaves]

Should we criminalise all men who pay for prostitution, alongside help for women to leave prostituion?

I'm not sure punters should be criminalised. After, plenty of women do become prostitutes out of choice. There is always too much bleating on here about women being forced and from abused backgrounds and no one seems convinced when a prostitutes says she enjoys it!

Now as I've said before, I'm not convinced there much real enjoyment there, more good acting and the wg marketing herself. What I think happens is the woman is easily able to shut off and think of the pound signs.

Go on punternet and see the women arselicking(literally) round the punters. They aint coerced at all.

Also, I do think what about the tiny minority of men who would never have sex with prostitutes? Painfully shy socially inept. I mean really bad, so they get to an age where its a massive stigmaam

Having said all of that though, I do think for most men there is no excuse to buy sex .

Bans don't work. In the USA prostitution is thriving. Even in Sweden where they only criminalize customers it's still thriving.

The Swedish law succeeded in reducing the number of streetwalkers BUT prostitution just moved indoors and to the internet.

Convictions for clients are very difficult to get in Sweden. Sex workers in Sweden do not consider themselves to be clients and are almost always unwilling to testify against their clients.

source:
A report by United Nations-backed Global Commission on HIV and the Law July 2012 page 38.

www.hivlawcommission.org/resources/report/FinalReport-Risks,Rights&Health-EN.pdf

exoticfruits Mon 10-Sep-12 22:26:24
Then don't buy the person.

"Buy the person"?? That sounds like a bit of a dysphemism (making something sound worse than it is).

Prostitution isn't about buying people (or their bodies). You don't own them it's not a slave auction. You are paying them for the service they are providing.

I am lucky that I have always been able to leave a job if they won't treat me as an individual.

If you can just leave jobs whenever you fancy and then just find a new one in today's economy then you are extremely lucky indeed.

"Sex workers in Sweden do not consider themselves to be clients"

whoops that should have been:

"Sex workers in Sweden do not consider themselves to be victims"

summer, yes it's a demand issue, the "sex deficit" in the Hakim book. Perhaps as the position of women advances and more of us outearn men and women do not seek a husband who can support them when they have babies it will disappear or perhaps it never will - perhaps men just need more sex whcih might explain why there are religions which allow muliple wives - FLDS, Islam but I've not yet found one which would allow me 3+ husbands.

avaboosmummy, I'm not bitter. I'm angry.

I'm angry because I volunteer in a drop-in centre for women in prostitution and I see a lot of harm, suffering and distress. And I don't just see women who work the street - we help women on every level of the pyramid.

I see the women who offer GFE and make clear to the johns that this is a choice they have made. I see them when they have been raped, beaten, threatened, stalked, started to use, got pregnant, have a STD, have a breakdown, attempt suicide, and so on. I also see trafficked women, women with mental health issues, pimped and battered women, heroin and crack addicts, runaways, under-age girls and boys.

Most of the women access the service they need and then go back to work.

Norway is the model to follow for banning prostitution. Punters have been criminalised and exit programmes provided for women.

Those arguing how some women choose prostitution and make good money are forgetting that they are talking about a tiny minority of women. Most women do not choose this in a meaningful way.

I think it is important to focus on the majority of women and to stop their abuse. If a small number of women really do choose it, then they can choose to do something else.

And prostitution harms all women. The women who are partners of the men using prostitutes, the women who are viewed differently by men because men have been able to buy and use a woman, the woman whose daughters, neices, sisters become prostituites and are used and abused. You really think being able to buy a woman to use for sex doesnt send out messages that harm all women under patriarchy?

Wow this thread is really something
"girls" "working girls" - why refer to everyone as underage? And it's possible to work and be female and not be a prostitute these days. In fact even during the middle ages a "working girl could" be, for example, a 14-year old fishmonger.

Sex workers in Sweden do not consider themselves to be victims
Cool, so you know every single one of them?

Yes there is harm in prostitution, but why not tackle the problem head on instead of a blanket ban
Agree, let's stop the demand instead.

Oh and countless times I have seen an 'escort' leave the centre by being picked up in a car by her boyfriend/pimp. Often foreign women, but not always. We regularly have pimps show up and demand their 'girls' back. The women generally go without a fuss.

I don't think I've seen any of the p unters engaging with Frida's posts yet.

Being ugly or socially inept doesn't give you a 'right' to sex. Nobody has that.

I agree that no one has the right to sex even if they are socially inept. I do believe that some genuine men really do not see any option if they are say virgins at 45 and have never even kissed a woman.

Its difficult for those of us who have no difficulty forming relationships to imagine.

Men like this this are really a tiny minority and I bet the vast majority of men who see prostitutes are middle aged married men.

I agree carmen,

I think it is important to focus on the majority of women and to stop their abuse. If a small number of women really do choose it, then they can choose to do something else

hence why these discussions always go round and round. There is a big difference between a desperate street prostitute and high class prostitute descreetly working out of a nice flat in Mayfair. ( or NY , or Paris, or Zurich or where ever )

If you make it impossible for the latter to work, how are you giving them a choice ?! Someone like Ava is not going to feel greatful when you remove their livelyhood and force them into low payed work.

paid - payed

getmorenappies - I put the women being abused first, that is the difference. I dont think it si acceptable to allow the majority of prostitutes to be abused so a few high class prostitutes can carry on making good money.

You know there were a tiny number of slaves who argued against anti slavery legisalation and a tiny number after slavery was abloished who said their lives were worse? By your logic we should not have abolished slavery because its abolition harmed a tiny number of ex slaves.

In beachcombers earlier link the 'elite' prostitutes - the ones in a Mayfair penthouse etc- make up 2% of all prostitutes.

Should we just forget about the other 98%?

Yes that is what others are arguing Sabrina. Who cares about 98% of prostitutes being abused as long as those 2% who are making good money can carry on making good money.

Therandomone- you have my sincere sympathies if you feel you are too ugly to get sex- but I have known plenty of not -very-attractive people maintain fulfilling relationships.

Take a look at Jeremy Kyle- (personally I can't bear it,) but there are regularly men on there with neither looks, money or fame who have partners. And have often cheated on them.

The fact that a minority of men may have difficulty getting a sexual partner doesnt excuse abuse of women (even those that supposedly want it).

You know there were a tiny number of slaves who argued against anti slavery legisalation

Except that high class escorts aren't slaves of course. They do it of their own free will and earn lots of money.

I think pretty much everyone on this thread agrees that the majority of prostitutes not earning lots of money or doing it with free will need help.

But as said, I think we've failed them a long time before they end up on the street.

I agree we have failed them a long time before prostitutes end up on the streets or in brothels, or in other situations prostituting themselves. totally agree

Isn't of funny how all the punters who come on here insist that they are using high-class, willing escorts and are therefore doing no harm- they should just be allowed to get on with their little 'hobby'.

Who are the men who use the other prostitutes. Which men use the other 98%? Some men are obviously paying the abused, addicted, pimped ones.

I'm not a punter Sabrina.

I wasn't talking to you getmore.

There are several self confessed punters on this thread.

stellamarrundercovercallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whos-a-prostitution-expert/

One of my fellow exited women has raised an interesting point on her blog (secretdiaryofadubincallgirl) when she mentioned the ?cruelty and callousness? of non-prostituted women who advocate prostitution as suitable and agreeable ?work? for other women.

This view is expressed with great vigour by some women who are not prostituted, never were prostituted, and never will be. To hear commercialised sexual abuse sanctioned as acceptable is a painful, insulting slap in the face to prostitution survivors, but to hear it sanctioned by women who know NOTHING of prostitution from personal experience is worse than painful and insulting ? it is the deepest stab in the back a non-prostituted woman can give to a woman with a history like mine. There is no question that the position these women have taken is rooted in their own ignorance.

Ignorance is just a natural consequence of never having experienced a situation, but it is not ignorance alone here that causes emotional and practical suffering. It is, in this case, ignorance paired with baseless convictions. This is what I call ?toxic ignorance?.

rmott62.wordpress.com/2012/02/11/looking-for-unicorns/

I am tired and exhausted by how ?discussions? round prostitution are controlled by a constant search for two unicorns.

The unicorn of the prostituted women who have never had bad experiments, is completely in control, has no past experiences of sexual violence, and is able to leave at any time.

The other unicorn that others are desperate to discover is the good punter ? the punters who would report any abuse or under-aged prostitutes without testing the goods first, the punter who would not dream of making the prostitute into living porn, you know that Richard Gere punter.

Well, if you are on the search for these unicorns, you are more than wasting your time, you are diverting the work of the abolitionist movement.

Look within yourself, why you need there to be good punters and happy hookers ? why do have the need to make the reality vanish.

xlondoncallgirl.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/prostitution-survey_20.html#more

Answers from when I worked as a London call girl in my early twenties.

secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/empowerment/

I?d like to say a little something about empowerment, something people like to believe about women in prostitution. ?But look at them, they are the ones in control, they are the ones making the decisions! They are such sex savvy girls, they are so sexually empowered and liberated!?

Right.

Let me tell you something. Money is what controls your decisions, how far you go is up to how much money you are offered. Who do you think has the power here? The money wielder, of course. The ones with the money are always the ones with power, in general, in all aspects of life. Do you really think that men see prostitutes as human beings? Real human beings and look beneath the lingerie and fake smiles and sex noises? If they did, they wouldn?t be buying access to your orifices.

"I think it is important to focus on the majority of women and to stop their abuse. If a small number of women really do choose it, then they can choose to do something else."

And who made you the self appointed keeper of these women? Oh that's right we aren't educated enough to make our own decisions. You kind of answer your own question and that is to do with personal choice. Just because the moral brigade do not like something there is no need to inflict that on those who are pursuing their own free will.

The main issue of law for prostitutes in the UK is that it prevents women working together, which could allow a greater level of safety if they were able to without breaking the law. The reason it is currently illegal is so that it still remains against the law to live of someone else's earnings, so it was designed to make the issue of pimping unlawful.

Beachcomber;
from your posts it sounds as though you are in the US, where prostitution is illegal in most states. Hence you end up with a situation where prostitutes have no protection from the law as they run the risk of being arrested themselves. Thank fully the UK law is different and there are successful prosecutions for those who think it's ok to abuse and scam on both sides of the equation.

Not to mention that prostitutes working in the UK have the ability to place warnings about problem punters, thus giving other girl's the opportunity to avoid them.
Yes being a prostitute isn't without it's risks, but as with everything in life you assess the risk and decide whether it's worth it.

In the UK drugs are illegal yet it doesn't stop people buying them, possibly in the case of cannabis although customs have done a great job to prevent it being imported we now have an explosion of UK growers to the extent I believe we are now exporting it!

We have drug support in the UK, it can be hard to access and the amount of funding needed to support all addicts simply isn't available in the public purse. Also take into account how many reformed addicts then relapse. You can't make someone give up drugs, they have to want to do it for themselves otherwise all money spent on their rehabilitation is wasted.

There are organisations in the UK that will support ex prostitutes, but again it's whether they want it.

I don't believe in the 2%/98% split. The main UK escort directory has plenty of independent escorts who don't fall into these groups.