Just feeling really angry at all the murder, assault, rape of females that goes on

[BornStroppy]

I told my husband how horrible it is being part of a gender that is constantly attacked, murdered, etc. He had never thought about it. He doesn´t need to. So we have Tia Sharp, the lady who disappeard in London, an old lady in Scotland murdered by son´s friend, another one murdered in a taxi in Birmingham - this is just over two weeks.

I have one son, pregnant again and just hope its another boy to be honest.

Why is it OK? Apart from raising gentlemen, what the hell can we do? As a gender, we give birth, nurture, raise, care for them, and as a gender we are the ones who suffer at their hands.

its so depressing.

You.

Evolutionary theory is fine - some of it. What is not fine is evolutionary psychology, which is not generally accepted, and certainly hasn't been for 200 years. I do not believe anyone with a scientific knowledge would agree that men compete for women through violence

Actually most people with scientific training do believe it, with the caveats I noted upthread..

But, if you don't believe mate selection drives male on male violence LRD, what do you believe drives it?

I have 2 sons.

During their teenage years they were mugged, robbed, attacked, beaten up, more times than I can recall.

They never once went out looking for trouble. They are pleasant, well brought up young men.

This type of thing never makes the headlines though because it is considered normal.

[sad

I have to say that I do know of vulnerable young women,who are "attracted" if that is the right word,to the more violent men.They live in areas where the law is more in the hands of the people living there,rather than the police. They see these more violent men as better able to protect them.Have know idea how they end up loving them,it has got something to do with them feeling "protected",as in being loved and looked after.

whatme - I don't think that's so. I know a lot of scientists who don't think it stands up. But I don't want to get into this because I also think many people who do believe in evo psych would not use it to blame women for male violence.

I don't know what drives male violence. I just know it has to stop, and it's not women's fault.

Women are not attracted to violent men out of the blue. Women who end up with violent men are almost invariably those who've grown up with violence. That is not 'natural', that is something they need help with. It's well known that this is a pattern, and also that women can escape this pattern.

The natural human response to violence is not attraction. To claim it is, is sick and twisted.

Didn't Germaine Greer write a chapter in "The Whole Woman" about fear and the way in which it is manipulated in order to keep women afraid and in need of the protection of other men?

I remember watching a Tribal Wives episode about a nomadic polygamous family (in Turkey I think). The women worked constantly to serve the men's needs as well as that of their families. They kept the whole shebang going. When the western visitor questioned what the men did in return, the head replied "we give them our protection". I always thought that was a con, because the women did far more to "protect" the family than the men did. By exaggerating the presence of "stranger danger" those men had gotten themselves a cushty deal.

Never read that,but sounds like it is worth a read.
Trouble is, the women I was talking about,are in danger,courtesy of the areas in which they live.
I have tried pointing out that other areas are not necessarily like this,but due to them having lived all there short lives not moving very far,that is all they know,and sadly all they expect.

I have heard some pretty silly statements on MN but none quite as silly as 'men compete for women through violence'. I don't know any violent men and I don't know any women who wouldn't be utterly disgusted and walk away.

I am so glad to see that post has been deleted.

Round of applause for MNHQ.

Well I'm deeply distressed its been deleted, I think its shameful. The closing of the Western Mind strikes again.

Evutionary psychology is a bunch of misogynistic bollox made up by violent men to justify rape and domestic violence

Well, it really upsets of all the people I think are total fruitcakes, like Creationists and Extreme RadFems, so on that basis I think its probably on the right track :o

What is this 'Western Mind', whatme?

You're not doing a lot of favours for this pet theory of yours with terminology like that - it sounds like something out of a Victorian text on 'the natives' or something!

i've just caught up with this thread and promptly sent an email to MNHQ, i havent insulted anyone or got personal, i checked the posting guidlines first and among the reasons for having a post deleated "offending LRD" isnt one of them, i await their answer with some inpatience.

oh and exoticfruits, i diddnt say that, you did, please use the full context when quoting people

I believe insulting women as a species might not have been the best move ...

I never saw the whole quote - was quoting from whoever quoted. I am completely lost as I have no idea what was deleted!

Sorry, I quoted, I hope accurately, but I can't check now and am really glad it's just died a death, to be honest.

meow when someone with a posting history like yours makes dodgy comments, it's going to be scrutinised closely

consider yourself clocked

Hmm... I agree with you, LRD WRT to the ideas in peoples deleted post, but... Curious that MNHQ deleted it, and I can't say I'm happy about that.
I think that unless posts are abusive towards individual posters or illegal, it's probably best that they remain to be seen in all their Technicolor twattishness glory. (And FWIW, I'm sure you didn't mean to say what it looked like you were saying, peoples. I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt, anyway.)
The problem with deletions unless they're absolutely necessary is that they make it really hard to follow a thread (obviously). Also the apparent censoriousness of MN really annoys me at these times

mango, they do also have a policy of deleting posts that are racist, disablist and (IIRC) misogynistic.

Is it just me on the wrong thread but I get a bit fed up with most men being portrayed as nasty cruel vicious brutes and women as their victims. There's good and bad in both sexes.

Who portrays most men as nasty cruel vicious brutes, vivienne? Do you mean pornmonkey's comment about 99%?

I think that's completely made-up bollocks too, but I don't think it is the majority view.

Yes, there are violent men and women. However, sadly evidence points to the fact that the overwhelming majority of violence is commited by men. I think it is Himalaya who points our the statistics on how men and women are generally victims of violence. The one thing in common is the fact that the perpetrator is almost always male.

There seems to be two ways of explaining this evidenced in this thread. You can go with the evo psych philosophy and propose that men use violence because it offers them some kind of reproductive benefit. That is it somehow "natural" for men to be more violent than women.

The second would be that violence is a learnt behaviour. Violent men have been socialised to act violently in some situations. They have learnt violence watching their parents etc. This would suggest that male violence is the product of how they are raised and educated.

Personally I find the second explanation more convincing. All men are not violent. Not even most men. This makes it hard to see how violence offers men any benefit in the search for a mate. It also makes the argument that male violence is somehow "natural" quite insulting to men in general.

To assume that male violence is mostly directed by a subconscious desire to reproduce, seems to me to ignore the importance of socialisation and learning in the development of a person's character. I don't think anyone would argue that up-bringing has no bearing on the type of adult they become. I think we all recognise how important culture and peer pressure is in defining people's behaviour. So why should violence be attributed to other things?

If violence is a learnt behaviour, then it is possible to reduce violence. It is possible to change cultural practices etc. it requires only that people recognise where the problem lies and work out strategies to counter them. If violence is learnt behaviour then men are no more "beasts" than women are.

It isn't just you, Viviennemary - I am at least one more.

I am of the opinion that there is good and bad in everyone to varying degrees when they are born.
And then nuture helps to make differences too.

I suppose I also think that the potential in men for violence,is higher than the potential for women.Not sure on that one.But cant think of another reason to explain the differences in levels of violence that are carried out by men and women.Testosterone?

LRDtheFeministDragon Sun 12-Aug-12 23:53:14
Who portrays most men as nasty cruel vicious brutes, vivienne? Do you mean pornmonkey's comment about 99%?

Certainly the more posts are deleted the more confusing the thread becomes, but nowhere have I stated anything like that.