So much in society would improve if we removed the emphasis on PIV.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Now don't get me wrong, I like PIV sex and don't believe it's quite as dreadful as some others do. But I have been thinking about the opinions expressed on these boards about how damaging it can be, and I see the point.

I'm a long-term married women with a monogamous partner who as has a vasectomy. So the risks of STDs and pregnancy are much lower (hopefully zero!) than for a young single woman who may choose to take casual lovers. So while I may enjoy PIV with little risk, for that young single woman, the risks are much higher than for her partners.

Then there are teenagers. Teenage pregnancy can leave a young women with much lower future prospects than if she had children later in life, and quite often the father doesn't stay in the picture. The cause of this, quite obviously, is PIV. If young people, and even older people who still face risks of STDs and pregnancy, were taught that ALL sex is sex, not just penetration, then everyone could have a satisfying sex life without these risks.

If there were no such thing as virginity, young people could slowly progress from kissing to oral and other sex acts without the need for the one big moment where penetration occurs.

I'm not a man, so I'm not qualified to comment, but I have to wonder if a man's orgasm outside of a vagina is really such a runner-up prize to orgasm within a vagina. If there's not much difference, WTF is PIV such a big deal? Is it a societal thing? But it's so widespread across the world that it seems unlikely.

Is it because PIV allows a man to orgasm even if the woman is uncooperative? Whereas with other methods, eg hand or mouth, she needs to be willing?

Surely if we removed the emphasis from PIV being such a big deal, things would be so much better, from there being fewer unwanted pregnancies, to fewer women suffering health issues from STDs or pregnancies (and men would have fewer STDs too), to couples probably having a deeper and more fulfilling sex life as they found new and creative ways to pleasure each other.

Yes, I know that I'm preaching to the converted for the most part here, and pardon me while I just get my thoughts down in print.

The bottom line of what I was thinking is, surely it would be beneficial to target a campaign at teens, instead of suggesting abstinence or pushing condoms (or perhaps alongside), with the message that All Sex is Sex, and All Orgasms are Good Orgasms. Spark the idea in their mind that perhaps PIV isn't the be-all and end-all, and that it's not an ultimate goal that needs to be hit.

Am I making any sense?

Stop being offended, let go of your neuroses and enjoy PIV

Bonsoir your comments in particular on this thread are quite nasty.

But then that's not news to you is it.

I am fascinated by the extraordinarily high correlation between radical feminism and defence of the merits of non-PIV sex...

Maybe you could go and talk to some gay men or lesbians about the merits of non PIV sex, Bonsoir.

Or some people who are into scenes where PIV is not part of the action.

You could also think about whether the orgasm that you personally get through PIV is really superior to all the other orgasms that people enjoy through all sorts of other acts and means, and how your assertion comes across (clue - not very well).

Or you could just continue in your usual vein trying to goad people on this board by picking on things that you imagine will annoy them - when in fact you have no idea about their lives, what sort of sex they have, with who, or in fact anything

Bonsoir, no one is telling you to STOP having PIV. People are just discussing the fact that some people prefer orgasming from other practices, and that what's 'best' when it comes to sex is what the people having it enjoy the most.

Thing is, PIV is often counted as 'real' sex, even though it's sometimes only the male participant who has an orgasm during a bout of PIV. This is one reason why feminists question its superiority - insisting on PIV as the only proper kind of sex is kind of peddling the idea that it's only the man's orgasm that matters, and women's enjoyment is supposed to derive from making the man happy.

'tis true, I like to goad the man-hating, sex-hating misery guts who call themselves feminists and like to blame men for all their own failings

You mean you like to goad a stereotype. Most people do not conform to stereotype. So your goading does not hit the target but instead serves to insult a whole bunch of other people who you were not targeting.

It's a bit silly really. I am sure you don't mean to say that all homosexual people have inferior sex lives, the same as I'm sure you didn't mean to say (famously) that you can't stand to be near anyone (man, woman or child) who is "ugly". However you make these statements and don't seem to really think them through, often.

I dispute (strongly) the idea that women don't orgasm, and orgasm better, during PIV, unless the woman is not in the right state of mind and body (which is under her control, and hers alone) to orgasm.

Bonsoir I know you like to think you know hell of a lot, about hell of a lot...but you really cannot say how most women experience orgasm. Even those with highly developed empathy can't actually feel what someone else does .

Bonsoir: what you're actually doing is displaying a laughable level of ignorant solipsism. Why does it bother you so much that other people have different sexual preferences, anyway?

I've never claimed, and never would, to experience another woman's orgasm. All I know, from talking to lots of women about it, is that women who experience the whole gamut of orgasms (clitoral, vaginal, anal etc) with a long-term sexual partner always, IME, think that PIV orgasm is qualitatively totally different to any other sort. Women who don't experience vaginal orgasm consistently defend clitoral orgasm as great and just as good as any other kind.

Go figure.

Saying that PIV is superior to any other sort of sex is homophobic, yes

I think that's scraping the bottom of the moral high ground barrel, sardine....

I am fascinated by the extraordinarily high correlation between radical feminism and defence of the merits of non-PIV sex

Its one of the main sub-tenets of one extreme "sect" of Radical Feminism (that a lot of the MN Radfems seem to subscribe to afaics). Overall blaming Thge Menz for everything is one of the biggest differences between Radical and other Feminist views. It also, IMO is why they are such a tiny minority (albeit very strident) because these views are seen by most women as barking impractical.

PIV is the ultimate goal for some people, you can't change that. It's personal preference, just the same as other preferring oral or now sex at all. Not very practical.

Saying you prefer PIV is not a slight against lesbianism. Doesn't some lesbian sex involve vaginal stimulation depending on the couples preferences?

Since when did pointing out that there are all sorts of ways to get off and get your partner off, and that individual people like some of these ways and not others, and that it's stupid to insist that everyone who doesn't do it the way you do it is inferior become 'Waaah, feminazis want to stop me enjoying sex!'?

Hello

My name is Bertie and I have had orgasms in several different sexual, um, situations and I can categorically say that I don't find any one particularly "better" than another and, indeed, often feel like having a non-vaginal orgasm, either just as much or probably more often than I feel like a PIV one (God this feels clinical ) And yes, I have had an orgasm that way and it's very nice, but I don't want it all the time.

Is it just me who's getting dizzy? Feels like we're going around in circles...

"Doesn't some lesbian sex involve vaginal stimulation depending on the couples preferences?"

well sure
But they don't usually use a penis for the vaginal stimulation, as far as I am aware.

Bertie you are obviously not one of the laydees who bonsoir discusses anal orgasms with over a coffee in gay paris

Saying that you personally prefer PIV orgasms is fine. You're just stating your preference.
But stating that all women prefer it, and that it is superior, is just..well bloody daft at best.

I mean, come on. Since when do all women feel the same about...well...anything?

So getting back to op. Can you remove emphasis of PIV? Isn't it just personal preference?

I still believe is should be easier for everyone to find their own personal preference, and for those who don't like PIV to tell new partners so in the open expectation that this will be met with acceptance rather than that person running for the hills.

I'm not anti-PIV, and I accept there's a certain biological pull towards it, but I don't accept that that is entirely due to nature and not remotely due to societal conditioning. I think it has unfair bias as "real sex", particularly as it holds the highest overall level of risk to women.

While I would love PIV to be just another tool in an active sex life toolbox, I accept that it isn't, it has more relevance in society than other sex acts, and it would take a huge shake-up of attitudes for that to change so I certainly don't see it happening any time soon.

^^

I think that is a very good summary, except I don't think of the bias as "unfair", more as "expected" owing to the biological imperative..

Personally I think if all sex were biologically supposed to be PIV the clitoris would actually be inside the vagina.

I think the fact that men and women can enjoy non-PIV sex is the oldest form of birth control. Evolutionarily it actually isn't good to have baby after baby, regardless of food shortages/predators/war, until you die and all existing children have one fewer parent to raise them.

When I was at school this is what happened.Most girls got boys to give them oral but only counted piv as sex to keep your numbers down.eg I have only had sex with one person so I am a good girl and not count the few others boys that had gave you oral.

I completely agree op. When looking at it objectively it seems crazy to put yourself at risk of huge life changing things happening to you just so a man can have an orgasm. One might stands in particular the risk to me seems too high to engage in piv that means as a woman you could get pregnant; have a baby or abortion and then risk dying or severly harming your body to have that baby! Women also contract std's much easier.
Oral, manual stimulation can be equally if not more satisfying particularly for women and it runs much lower risks. I wish more women didnt feel they had to have piv as that is what men expect.
It's something no one ever questions and maybe a campaign like your suggesting might make a few people think.