Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do Radfems propose to tear down the patriarchy?

304 replies

Hullygully · 27/06/2012 10:23

Just that. Interested to know how.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/06/2012 16:39

hully, you're missing the point.

Many people do not percieve the way I speak, or the way you speak, to be 'politeness'. We may well be trying our best, but people do often say how they feel patronized.

We all need to work on that one.

vezzie · 28/06/2012 16:41

Hello LimeLeafLizard,
Don't worry! you don't have to be a separatist. I'm not.

Hullygully · 28/06/2012 16:42

Are they saying it to yo in secret? They don't say it to me Confused

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/06/2012 16:43

'PARD' is the acronym for 'polite and reasonable discourse', isnt it?

Automatically, claiming to speak that is rude, isn't it? It's a lovely aim, but to claim it as a reality is of course rude. I think the problem is perhaps that people think it's being pushed as a kind of communication we actually credit ourselves with carrying out, as opposed to the kind we hope to participate in.

As ever, there's a real difficulty that we're talking about what we hope to do, and we need to be clear that we don't think we've already achieved the ideals and everyone else is less advanced.

Hullygully · 28/06/2012 16:45

I think I'll go and rock quietly in the corner for a bit...what with the heat, it's all got a bit much.

OP posts:
garlicbutt · 28/06/2012 16:45

Hully: Wink

LimeLeaf ... It's just a bit of FWR introspection! Does us good from time to time but, no, feminism doesn't mean you've got to abandon your family to live in a single-sex commune Grin

LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/06/2012 16:46

They don't say what to you hully? Confused

Is this PARD an ideal or a self-description?

No-one has yet told me I am rude by using LRDRFD, but this hardly proves that LRD's favourite RadFem Discourse is the best way forward, does it?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/06/2012 16:47

hully, don't worry too much. I'ms ure your aims are good. It's just not always easy to match up what we want with how we come across.

catgirl1976 · 28/06/2012 16:48

I've totally lost the thread of this thread

Hullygully · 28/06/2012 16:49

lrd - they don't say that I am patronising by aiming at PARD, at least not to my face! So if you know that many find it "quite rude" and "patronising" they must be whispering it to you!

But don't get into it, it will get too mad.

For clarity, PARD is something we shoudl all aim at, imo. Oftne we will get cross, or fall short, but it should be the aim.

OP posts:
Hullygully · 28/06/2012 16:50

I think we all have cat! we are all spiralling down the plughole together.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/06/2012 16:56

Maybe so, hully, I am just saying how it seems to me.

Of course, some people will be a little nervous of getting into such an aggressive argument when you insist they must say things very much up front to you. It is tough.

I think I will bow out for a bit at least as I am finding it hard to be put on the spot so much. I do understand that is not the aim but I was only suggesting a very simple point about welcoming people with accommodating multiple ways of communicating.

catgirl1976 · 28/06/2012 16:56

I hope someone has Veeted it ............

ComradeJing · 28/06/2012 16:58

LimeLeaf I don't know if you identify as a feminist at the moment but I'd hope firstly that any feminist of any flavour would wish to bring you over to the dark side into feminism in general before you decided (and you may not want to label yourself) what flavour of feminist you were. :)

I do not believe that radfems - certainly none on MN - would think that a reasonable plan for the future is to make women remove themselves from those they love. Separatism, as I understand it, is about choosing to remove yourself from the patriarchy as much as you are able to. It isn't about someone dragging you away from your home, shaving your head, giving you a mao suit and sending you off to a female colony where you may never contact men again.

IME when discussing men on FWR most feminists mean men as a class not the individual men you know. No, most men in the UK aren't removing all there partners wages and getting rich whilst forcing all the women to live in poverty.

However, if you look at the division of wealth it is vastly more men who are at the top earning lots than women and there are lots of women at the very bottom of society who are scraping by on nothing whilst doing jobs that aren't well regarded. Some feminists (myself included) think that it is the patriarchy that keeps men rich (and therefore powerful) and women poor (so powerless).

It's like the rape thing. Under UK law, only men can be rapists. Therefore men rape. This does not mean that every man rapes or that your husband is a rapist but men, generally, as a class, are rapists.

Hope that makes sense.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 28/06/2012 16:58

welcoming people by accommodating. I can't type. Sorry.

MiniTheMinx · 28/06/2012 17:05

Going back to Caramel's point, I think Consumerism is important but only in so far as how it relates to how we create the commodity to be consumed. This for me ties in with my historical materialist way of looking at history. If patriarchy came about as a result of the social relations necessary to our survival including reproduction and all forms of production, then this is a history we share with men. The capitalist means of production is another mechanism by which patriarchy then exerts power. However it means that capitalism uses patriarchy to exert power over women too. Plus of course there are all sorts of concerns about environmental degradation.

garlicbutt · 28/06/2012 17:05

Under UK law, only men can be rapists. Therefore men rape. This does not mean that every man rapes or that your husband is a rapist but men, generally, as a class, are rapists.

Oh, god, no! It means rapists are men. Not the other way around. Rapists as a class are men, not the other way round! The class of men contains rapists.

I'm definitely going for a rest now, Jing; if you need to reply, I'm not ignoring you.

LimeLeafLizard · 28/06/2012 17:13

OK, so I don't have to shave my head, don't have to leave my family, don't have to wear a mao suit and don't have to live in a single sex commune. Phew!

All right I'll read some more.

Yes, ComradeJing I get what you're saying about about men and women being disproportionately rich / poor.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 28/06/2012 17:28

LimeLeaf - Has Basil explained to you about the baby eating yet? Only male babies of course.

glasgowwean · 28/06/2012 18:16

Now if I'd known that you were into baby eating Eats, I'd convert to radfem in an instant.

Such cute little peachy limbs - I miss having a little one to nibble on

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 28/06/2012 18:41
Grin
glasgowwean · 28/06/2012 18:56

Ok, so can I just check that we agree on somethings then ?

There just happens to be an AIBU thread which I would see as something that I should be contributing to but I suspect that I would be absolutely battered with shrieks of 'militant feminist'. The thread in question is debating a minor point but one that I think underlies the whole 'women as antifeminists' in failing to see that by accomodating their male partners they are perpetuating the inequality.

The OP is seen as inflammatory whereas I would see it an an 'in' to discuss the bigger picture behind it.

What would the radfem view be to jump in jump in or is it too minor a point when there are major issues to be contending with ?

Seriously don't wish to start a bunfight in AIBU but interested to see a radfem view on the 'small stuff'

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 28/06/2012 19:10

What is the AIBU thread. Hard to comment without knowing the issue

catgirl1976 · 28/06/2012 19:11

It's either spanking or suitcases I think

glasgowwean · 28/06/2012 19:12

suitcases