How do Radfems propose to tear down the patriarchy?

[Hullygully]

Just that. Interested to know how.

I disagree with the entire precept behind your post at 15:04, vezzie. Alterations to the law and to our cultural overton window on sexist abuse have effected great change, and continue to do so everywhere on every scale.

In gross oversimplification, your approach seems to start from the position that men as a class wish to violently oppress women as a class. Not only do I think this is untrue, I think the will of men to oppress women diminishes as the overton window moves.

This is probably a discussion for one of the patriarchy threads but I'll just add that, to me, patriarchy is a set of socio-political beliefs which favour men at women's expense men; not a male abuse paradigm. The difference is fine but fundamental. I do, however, think that patriarchy is a sociopathic structure, as I've said elsewhere. Negotiation with a sociopath is difficult but it is possible.

'This is probably a discussion for one of the patriarchy threads but I'll just add that, to me, patriarchy is a set of socio-political beliefs which favour men at women's expense men; not a male abuse paradigm. The difference is fine but fundamental. I do, however, think that patriarchy is a sociopathic structure, as I've said elsewhere. Negotiation with a sociopath is difficult but it is possible.'

garlic, please don't worry about this if you are busy, but if not, can you explain this a bit for me? I'm not following and I'm interested.

Caramel, you said: "... change consumerism or huge disasters will happen."

I am supposing you mean consumerism leads to:
[a] Deepening of the gap between men's power and women's power;
[b] Irreparable environmental damage from cheap manufacturing.

Am I correct?
Do you think it would make any difference if material wealth and resources were equally owned by women?

Cheers, LRD, I'll come back after taking a break and see how the thread's going :)

Women having space to be empowered by sisterhood and opening our eyes to how amazing and powerful we are when we are not divided, manipulated or drained of energy by men or the status quo which preserves male dominance. From that point, radfems do whatever it takes.

By the way, patriarchy is already being torn down :D

So to answer you question - how patriarchy is being torn down?

The only possible way

S L O W L Y

And hang on again, say I.

Pardon the use of the vernacular, but why should women, as a class, give a flying fuck about pissing off, destroying, or otherwise irritating a class that violently oppresses us?

Yes yes yes the patriarchy might well be an intricate set of interlocking cultural practices rather than a sustained hate campaign but that fails to change the reality of what is happening. Men, as a global class, are cutting pieces off women. They are raping them. They are making them do all the work and taking all the money. They are forcing them to give birth. They won't let them in any of the top jobs. We can't effect proper change from down here.

Largely I am respectful, courteous and nice but I wholeheartedly support those that aren't. Look at that list. Look at it. Calling someone out, calling their opinions anti-woman even, is not the worst thing that can happen. Slicing someone's genitals off is the worst thing that can happen: just one of the worst things that can happen if you happen to have been born female in this world.

And Hully, I'd really like you to understand that I do not get angry with people who use misogynistic language, racism, or disablism. I just don't tolerate it. And why should I? They are part of the culture that ignores men cutting bits off women.

Oh, and I don't get angry, snippy or whatever at this lone woman who has wandered onto FWR by accident and is asking questions. I don't think anyone does that. Let's not straw-woman here.

The posters who call other posters 'barking' or 'mental'? The ones who call us all (and not just radical feminists) stupid or sheeplike? The ones who reads two hundred posts on a thread started by someone who states herself as a rape survivor and still feels compelled to tell the OP that she should have worked harder not to be raped?

Please.

garlicbutt, I wouldn't disagree with:

"Alterations to the law and to our cultural overton window on sexist abuse have effected great change"

Yes, this is true, and it is very good. I would far rather be a woman now than 100 years ago.

But my feminism is a bit different from my views on, say, environmentalism. To me there is a raging injustice in that women do not control their own bodies, and that they are so often instrumentally perceived by patriarchy as belonging to the world which they naturally control and use for their own purposes. I actually consider the disproportionate distribution of housework as being part of this (although some would think me a nutter for this) - I actually see a profound violent injustice in one sex being brought up to think that when they live as adults, they will probably live in a place where the housework is done for them by other humans, and they won't even have to think about it. I know this is not like rape and genital mutilation, but I consider it to be part of the way in which the patriarchy views women instrumentally. I do not consider to be done consciously and deliberately, but I know it's done, because I see it, everywhere. and women reclaiming agency over their bodies I do not consider to be a matter for negotiation.

I know it may be possible to negotiate on cases like this; I don't think it is just. I would negotiate over anything if necessary - for my life for instance - but is that the right way to go about things? Is that good?

I think this is on a different moral scale from things which require negotiation, although we do actually negotiate all the time over these very important things and maybe sometimes get somewhere. I just don't think this should be held up as a paradigm in this case.

I don't think it should be tolerated, it should be rebutted of course. But if you want the person to actually understand WHY it is offensive and embrace change and stop using it and perhaps in turn challenge others, then engagement is better than confrontation is all.

See look? You're getting all angry! Why bother? Calm discussion will take us further.

Hully, in my original post to you I clarified 'calling out' as:

'You need to look at your language/I'm calling you on xxx/Please don't use that'

(that's a direct C+P from my post).

I think calling it confrontational is a stretch. I really do. All it would take it a 'why' from anyone and an explanation could be provided (if it hadn't been already explained).

Well said victor

I'm a little bewildered at how best to establish that actually, I'm not remotely angry?

I am also a little bewildered at how sitting around and calmly asking men to stop being violent towards women will work. We've been doing that for years, for one thing.

To me, that seems as much of a unworkable solution as you think tearing down the patriarchy is.

Yes, I understand. I still think that in real life (and on here) that very no-frills, direct language is generally seen as rude/confrontational from both women and men.

It would be unlikely to call forth a "why" more like a "well, don't speak to me like that and don't tell me how to speak etc" and would all go downhill from there.

But hey, we can agree to differ!

But if you use racist, sexist, disablist language, you will be told how to speak.

I'll tell you. MN will remove your post. In certain cases, you'll be arrested (less so for sexism, sadly).

It's right that people are asked not to use terms like that. It's a fundamental part of being in society. Isn't it?

The two things are being mixed up.

1. All forms of feminist action in the wider world are necessary, the extreme, the moderate, the legislative and all complement each other.

1. On these boards where individuals communicate directly with each other, politeness should be the norm and is the most effective aid to communication. IMO.

Oh that's interesting then, cos you sounded angry to me (I believe you when you say that you aren't!).

I don't know, I've lost the plot! By the time I think about one thing and type an answer another has appeared.

I feel like I'm talking about several things on several threads at once and it has all turned to spaghetti.

I think I'd better have a cup of tea.

But writing is just speech (albeit in a different format). How is any Overton window going to shift if we don't start with speech?

I shouldn't get drawn in when I'm off out. Bye all.

Cheers LRD. Now I really must go!

hully, I understand what you are saying and I respect it.

If I may say, I think there is a problem, that we all tend to think our own preferred mode of communication is the most suitable and the least offensive.

The problem is, this is not always true.

I am sure you know that many people find PARD quite rude. It may not make sense to you, it may seem odd ... but there it is. Somehow, it can come across as quite rude. I'm sure the same is true of the way I speak. And the way victor, or vezzie, or garlic speaks.

Of course we all intend to win people over and speak in a way that convinces. But IMO it is misguided to assume there is any one right way. It's swings and roundabouts.

Thanks for you reply, vezzie, and you may have noticed that I feel the same about housework :)

Victor: why should women, as a class, give a flying fuck about pissing off, destroying, or otherwise irritating a class that violently oppresses us

You're not getting this assertive thing. Annoying your opposite number is not the same as making him feel destroyed. As my sexist business mentor used to say, "Get everything you came for, but leave him his balls."

I'm finding this tiresomely reductive atm; maybe I also need to unravel some spaghetti

Stumbled on here by mistake and am a bit .

[Men] are making [women] do all the work and taking all the money? I've never seen this in RL... most men I know work bloody hard as do most women.

The thought of leaving all the people I love most in the world (DH, 3DSs, DBros, Dad) is just heartbreaking.

Perhaps I've totally missed the point but my accidental stumbling is not exactly drawing me towards rad fem.

Good thread idea though, Hully! Interesting reading.

lrd with all due respect, I have never seen a single poster complain about being driven off the FWR boards by politeness!

Plenty have been driven off by (perceived) rudeness.

And no, I didn't know that many people find PARD rude. I only know of one person. On the whole people seem in favour of it all over MN!