How do Radfems propose to tear down the patriarchy?

[Hullygully]

Just that. Interested to know how.

Oh you mean the one about it being bad for women to pack their male partner's suitcase?

I agree with you that it is a good starting point for a debate in theory. In practice no-one will listen to you and you will be accused of shit stirring. I agree with the OP of the thread and I don't think it is shit stirring at all to post that thread. Haven't read the comments at all, but I can guess what they are.

If you want to support the OP would probably be better to pm her?

Aye, that's the one.

I'm fascinated and somewhat disheartened by some of the responses. I think this is one of the stumbling blocks that all feminists face but am interested in the different approaches that could be taken

Glasgow - I think there is a lot to be said for picking your battles. i do tend to avoid AIBU, but if I think someone is being flamed unjustly i will sometimes post responses and sometimes just pm the OP.

In terms of changing people's views though around basic feminism - which is what that is, better to do it where people may listen to you. In threads that are basically a bun fight, everyone gets so irate that nobody listens. If you post on those threads, I think it is to let the OP know they are not alone and someone agrees with them. And that can be useful. But otherwise, I would leave it alone.

This is not a RadFem position by the way, just mine.

Spanking or suitcases . Sorry to be all unserious but lol.

I think it is different obviously if someone posts something about an issue in real life and all posters are saying the OP should just put up with a situation that obviously is not okay - and I am not just talking about MN. Then it is worth going on and saying no, that is unacceptable and you should not accept it -although you might phrase it differently obviously

Increasingly, I'm just seeing all these discussions about politeness to be a bit of a sideshow.

It's important. It is. I'm not dismissing the importance of engaging debate. Really I'm not.

But every time I've mentioned the violently oppressed women - the ones having FGM done to them, the ones having their earnings taken, the ones being forced to abort or forced to give birth, etc - the replies to me have somehow suggested that they aren't worth a little rudeness.

I think they are. I really, genuinely do. By 'rudeness' I don't mean screaming 'fuck off' at everyone, but by insisting that posters focus on them.

Ultimately, we have spoken in this thread about politeness. Like I said, it's a worthy aim, but if we're speaking about politeness then who is speaking for the women that I mentioned above?

Because if I can't put forward a relentless feminist agenda that insists on only focusing on women, really push it, really focus on it, on a messageboard where my only opposition is people telling me that I'm rude, then what hope have we women?

I think we can let a little brusqueness go. I really do.

I think I'm going to leave it at that. Cheers.

Forgot to say: I mean, this is a thread about tearing down patriarchy. And we've spoken about politeness. Dang.

Anyway, cheers all.

Victor. I think that if you put forward some facts about FGM on mumsnet, there will be a surprisingly high number who hadn't heard about it and will be shocked. I think your discussion will rapidly become impassioned, with lots of people asking "what's being done about it?" and "what can I do?"

I think that, if you inject even a small bullet of "This proves how men hate women!" you will lose your audience.

That's all.

Right, I really was going but I think it's important to clarify, once and for all, that I am not talking about posters asking questions. I really don't see how you got that from any of my posts.

No-one is going to roar in the face of a poster asking 'what is FGM?'. They certainly aren't going to roar in the face of anyone asking for links to campaigns and activism.

Asking for knowledge is not the same as assuming an opinionated stance.

They might get a hint of a roar if they said something along the lines of 'this is stupid' or 'it's a cultural practice so it's ok'.

I would have sympathy with the roarer at that point. FGM isn't ok, and it's less important to be polite than it is to insist that no, FGM is never ok.

Yes garlic, the thread would reach a larger audience and probably not be so inflamed.
But can't we also, on FWR, acknowledge that the FGM problem stems from male misogyny?

Just as a matter of interest, Vic, why are you lecturing feminists on fgm? Is it not more important to get that out to a wider audience to raise awareness and promote campaigns and activism against the practice?

I can understand posting a thread about fgm and asking all feminists to sign up on a link to a current campaign or whatever, but I'm genuinely curious why you feel you have to hector feminists in this way? (I use hector loosely - I have no idea whether that's happened on fgm threads)

Is it that non-feminists are posting questions on fgm threads re cultural practice etc? And somehow, for some reason, liberal feminists are feeling incorrectly got at? You aren't being brusque with any fems at all, just mners who don't identify with feminism (maybe some of those who ask the 'why do we need feminism any more, we have equliaty' question?)

I'm genuinely interested, because it seems that liberal feminists are being expected to take the flak for every bone comment in the world, at the mo, and have apparently incurred the wrath of radicals, but I'm not sure why?

I could go and read the fgm threads to find out if anyone has popped up and said 'I'm a liberal feminist. Fgm is fine' but I'm guessing you've got a pretty good memory for such stuff, and would have an instant answer, whereas I'd be trawling through for days...

I'm not being facetious. I understand your anger about fgm, and your strength of feeling, and your passion. But why are you cross with liberals?

Look, it was just an example. Often the threads about the horrific stuff are the ones that get heated and then collapse as accusations of rudeness fly.

This thread has, in the main, been a discussion about the importance of politeness and connection with everyone. Hully and others think it's of paramount important to connect. I respect that view but I also respectfully disagree.

I've probably gone on too long about it, but while I think we all have to work to be polite overall, we as feminists could all stand to let a few things go.

As feminists, we could cut a bit of feminist anger some slack.

Again, I don't feel like I have 'hectored' anyone. This has been a discussion. Hasn't it?

I really am bowing out now, so do feel free to take that last question as evidence of my bewilderment rather than a direct question aimed at anyone.

Oh Victor I do hope you wouldn't roar at me if I said FGM is cultural but is never bloody ok.

I'm not sure how saying it isn't ok is going to stop this practice. Raising awareness of the issue is important, mostly important though with those that practice this barbarity. Anyone know of any work being done in this area?

As for the AIBU boards I often just get stuck in, why ever not, my opinion is as valid as the next persons, being a feminist doesn't make my opinions any less worthy of consideration or respect.

Anger, "Dworkin's words resonated with anger and indignation at the way women of the world are battered, raped, and mutilated. She was most famous for her attack on pornography as the industry at the center of physical violence and cultural degradation"

Gail Dines on Andrea Dworkin, It's amazing what a little anger and indignation can achieve in terms of getting women's rights centre stage and talked about.

I don't think it's about cutting feminist anger some slack.

Any right thinking human would deplore detest and fight against damaging and oppressive practises against women (and men where applicable) and any right thinking feminist would make women their main focus, still doesn't make unleashing anger desirable or effective.

imo.

Again, general anger and rage against the machine can be efective and necessary. Personal, directed at an individual on a thread, is very very unlikely to be so.

You've gotta do what they tell ya.....

I am feeling rather like Hully's echo atm

Anger is a great motivator. "What shall I do with this anger?" is a great question. Useful answers afford strength and serenity, both of which are pretty handy when fighting for an epic cause that outlasts the generations.

Taking this out of forum life for a minute, if some oik pinches my bum I have a range of responses at my disposal. I could giggle or ignore; I do neither. I could say "Prat" or "That's assault", the likes of which I do. Or I could rage at the oik for his disrespect of me and, by extension, of all women and for his expression of patriarchal contempt for women the world over. I don't do that either.

I'm not saying I don't feel this anger; I do. But I try to pick my battles. I shame the oik a little bit, then post my incident on one of the many growing online logs for such things. This way, my incident forms part of the greater whole which is what I'm angry about and becomes important.

I have no idea whether this is making sense. Think I'm relapsing and should put myself to sleep :(

Sorry, going up thread ^ yes garlic, the way you have put it is much better. My way was making sense at 1am when I posted!

So - any advances on how the RadFems will tear down the Patriarchy then?

Fwiw I think it the Olde Patriarchy is slowly dismantling, but for economuc reasons - as women get more of the economic vote, the "petty patriarchy" will wither.

What I am more worried about is the increasing concentraion of assets and wealth into the hands of fewer and fewer people, who are also increasingly above any rule of law - a back-to-feudal-times "super patriarchy" if you like - and they shit on most men as much as they are shitting on women..

IMO that is where the real enemy increasingly lies.

"Fwiw I think it the Olde Patriarchy is slowly dismantling, but for economuc reasons - as women get more of the economic vote, the "petty patriarchy" will wither."

That's what I though in the early 70s. I'm still waiting.

I think it's reinforcing itself currently. Legislation aimed at lady wives in the home and menfolk out earning.

Yep, the backlash is in full swing.

I think that a lot of so called "gains" for women have just been or become sticks to beat us with.