To all those people who have an issue with trans people - please read this

[enimmead]

This is from a transwoman who has been jailed for 41 months. A black transwoman in the USA. I don't know if she is guilty or not. She was at a bar when a bunch of thugs started harassing her. The fact that they had Neo Nazi links was inadmissable in court. A glass got broken and a fight broke out. Ce Ce has been found guilty of stabbing someone and killing him - 41 months in jail (don't worry, it's a male jail).

This is from her blog:

supportcece.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/as-long-as-we-live-in-fear-we-live-in-ignorance/

To the many of us who have struggled, being of the GLBTQ community, this is for you. To those who have triumphed over the idea of conforming to this fascist, hateful society, this is for you. But most importantly, this is for all of our loved ones who have become victims of hate crimes and domestic violence being of the GLBTQ community, specifically Trans men and women, who are singled out and have the highest percentage of victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. My love and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of those who have lost a friend, a brother or sister, a mother or father, an auntie, uncle or cousin, or a partner or spouse to this epidemic. To all those unfortunate cases, this is for you.

In the memories of those who we have lost, it is our duty to put an effort to make a change. We should not have to sit back in the fear of our own lives and well being, or the lives and well being of those we love and care for due to the hate that exist and threatens our safety. We should not have to mourn for the lives of the people we love and have lost due to hate and careless acts. We have to stand up against those who put us down and try to oppress us. We have to enlighten the neophobics of this world and to help them realize the vast and diverse world we live in. because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

I thank the lord everyday for keeping me here and giving me such a profound mouth and mind to share my experiences and the trials and tribulations I?ve overcame, because honestly, I never thought I would make it past my 16th birthday. To grow up and have that thought at a young age is unsettling. The thought or feeling of knowing or expecting that today could be my last day on earth, only because someone hates me for being the person I felt would make my life happiest, or for being in an abusive and controlling relationship with someone who has no regards or remorse as to how they treat their partner is an unsettling thought. But it?s more unsettling to know that this is our reality, and that these are the issues we have to face on a day-to-day basis. And even with all that we choose to live our lives, and to continue living them proudly with gumption, bravery, and love in our minds and hearts. I know I still have faith in people, and am willing to make a change if they are willing as well.

We all grow up in different communities, with different social categorizations, but when it comes to being GLBTQ, sometimes we?re excluded and put into a category of it?s own, that is demeaning and belittling, and that no matter where you are we are singled out. I grew up in a community that was predominately African-American people. And with the fact of me just being a minority in this society was bad, being African American and trans is an ultimate challenge. I can remember having loaded guns being put to my head and being beat until bloody. Or walking downs the street and being yelled ? a faggot?. I thought because of their ignorance I decided to change my surroundings. So I moved to a suburban community, which were predominately white people. Then, I remember people grabbing their purses and children, like I was a thief and was going to steal their money and kids, and to still be yelled ?queer? or ?faggot?, which made me feel upset and that my efforts of leaving one community to another, went without victory. Also being a victim of domestic violence was also an issue that I had to deal with in my early teenage years. And fortunately I got out of that situation.

The point I was trying to make was that no matter where you go, or community you live in, people will continue to discriminate. And as long as we do not stand up for our equality, we allow them to have the upper hand against us. We allow for them to feel that?s its okay to verbally and physically attack us. And I feel that it is our duty to give these people the awareness and education about whom we truly are, and not whom they assume we are. We have to make sure that we won?t lose any more of our loved ones due to hate crimes and domestic violence. These problems are often over-looked when it comes to GLBTQ people because people feel that it isn?t as important if it happened to a straight person. Which is ironic because these problems affect us disproportionately. I feel that it is our duty to change the minds of those neophobics, because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

We have to be the matriarchs of this society. To start teaching our younger generations about hate, and why it?s so important not to hate. We have to end the bullying and harassment in our school systems. To organize more community actions and awareness about hate crimes and how to stop them from happening. We need to be leaders and role models for all to learn from. And from that we would be able to help and comfort someone who is unsure about his or her own sexual identity and preference. We will be able to eliminate people?s fears of being victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. To help someone to accept and be comfortable as whomever they choose to be, with no judgments or stereotypic labels attached.

And to all my brothers and sisters of the GLBTQ community, this is for us all. This is for those who are still here, and for those who have passed. With love and determination we can be the leaders. We can make a change. Because, see, what people fail to realize is that, even through their hate, bigotry, conforming, and biased views and actions that are enforced upon us,? love is inevitable and overcomes any and all things. And as long as love is in our mind and hearts, it can show us, even in fear, how to be leaders and role models, to be the leaders to show how to overcome the hate and oppression. Love is powerful enough to change the hearts of the neophobics in this world. Because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance."

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There has been so much hatred and ignorance spouted on this forum and i think some people forget trans people are people who deserve our humanity and support, not our ill informed bile and bigotry. I have been shocked at the level of anger on this thread. I have friends who are trans and they just want to exist and be accepted as people. There are a minority of activists who affect what everyone else does.

You may not accept what they believe. You may not accept the terminology. But accept they are people who are just trying to survive in a very difficult world.

Droves I was responding to an earlier post and I don't think that just so you know!

Eats - but they can't win can they? If they don't "pass" whatever whoever's idea of a normative female looks like (and I wonder who sets that criteria and if it's in anyway problematic - clue: yes), then they can be mocked freely apparently shouldn't be allowed to live as they wish.

And if they do pass then, they are evil tricksters.

Can't win, so shouldn't exist. Apparently.

IRA and others use hate campaigns , Its ingrained culture ...and anyone who uses nail bombs , explosive bombs and guns to murder children , women and men ( in shopping centres ect ) is no freedom fighter .

They are a group of psychopaths who are not fighting for freedom ...they are murderers and cowards . There is no war except the one they are creating for themselves.

Who mentioned the IRA? Dittany was calling Sinn Fein scumbag men, to which I objected.

It's like trans bingo on here

MTFs don't pass.
Why should they go into changing rooms?
They're not women.
They're men with penises.
They are well built so you can tell.
They dress like tarts and look like drag queens.

Have I missed anymore of the usual comments that are dragged out?

I think I have a full house.:)

i have read the thread - enimmead could you please say when these quotes are from? i can't seem to find any of them

i really hope you aren't paraphrasing making them up to stir, not very bridge building, really

tia

It must be difficult at home or when you go swimming then droves to ensure your children never see a glimpse of genitals aside from their own. And what a massive shock it will be to them when they hit puberty! I'm leaving this now as quite frankly it is getting a bit ridiculous! IMO fear of genitalia is far more damaging, and no I do not want to live in a nudist colony, but a healthy understanding of the human body is not sexual or indecent! But perhaps it's because I work in medicine and to me genitals are just another part of the body. Oh and shock horror, my daughter has also seen my breasts as she fed from them for a year.

Must learn to post faster ....

I honestly think the issue with the changing rooms is more to do with the people without penises don't want to see one in their space .

So if a trans that's pre op need to use one ( or public toilet) , could they not compromise and show the same respect they want and just use disabled facilities until they are post op ? . Some women have been raped and abused and would find a penis in the room traumatic , given that a lot of trans face abuse themselves would it not be easier to understand than men do ?

Gosh Pan - you personally attacked me the other day and here you are joining in the singling out of dittany on this thread with a personal attack.

Engage with the politics (all of you) and stop this attacking of a poster as a person because you don't agree with or understand her political viewpoint.

It is pathetic.

droves - I agree. But I have always found on Trans threads that saying you do not want to or want your daughter to see male genitalia in a female communla changing area, is ridiculed and characterised as ridiculously prudish.

I agree. Most trans do not pass.

How should they be treated?

There is a small number of people who regret. There are many who accept people know they are trans.

How should feminists treat trans people?

Not - what should they exclude them from. But how can feminism include trans people.

Is there a place for trans women in feminism? How should society treat them?

If you were trans, how would you hope to be treated?
If your child were trans, how would you hope society would treat them?

And I think a lot of pre-op trans are very wary of using female only spaces. Kim seemed to suggest that in her postings.

Bloody hell... How far can this descend?

I still don't see why biological women, who were born women and have an entire lifetime of experience because of that fact cannot have a space of their own. Why, just why, is that so offensive?

the changing room thing doesn't have to be an issue. in my local leisure centre, there is a large changing area, fitted with 2 types of cubicles - regular size for most, and larger ones for families/people who may need extra space.

there are prsumably all varieties of genitalia in there, but people seem to keep nudity to within the cubicles. i have yet to see anyone walking about naked/waviong anything about anyway

this way, people who might feel vulnerable are not exposed, no one has to see more of anyone than they might feel comfortable with, no one has to stress about passing or not.

maybe this is the way forward, for public spaces - to just totally degenderise

this does not however rule out the need for groups to meet with others like themselves - rape/sexual abuse support groups, support for women who have had birth trauma, some groups for support for women who have experienced male violence etc

I have worked with Trans person and socialised in groups with Trans people. I would treat them as individuals like anyone else i.e. with respect and consideration, unless they did not as an individual deserve that because of how they behaved.

But I do not think Trans people should have access to all women only spaces. There are times when spaces for biological women make sense. And many Trans people accept that.

Or mabey I'm assuming that because they " feel " like a woman , they will " think" like a woman.

chibi - Our local leisure centres are pretty run down - everything is communal. Shy teenage girls use the toilets to change.

And I don't mean bloody changing rooms! I meant the cancelled confernce, etc.

QueenTiggy, when you have a moment perhaps you could acknowledge this question which I have asked you three times now. Thanks!

Does that mean that you think that a person with a penis, testes, a prostrate and no uterus, ovaries, vagina or XX chromosomes is a woman? That such a person is exactly the same as a biological women? Yes or No?

I understand that it is a bit tricky - if you say 'yes' you are denying reality, and if you say 'no' you are transphobic (and might have your post deleted only to be dragged up later with the accusation that you have posted offensive language on a par with 'f**t').

Perhaps there are other posters who might like to answer?

(BTW I read that Macdonald was assessed by the relevant authorities and found to be of the male sex - hence why the sentence is happening in a male prison. I don't know what criteria they used.)

Should trans women be included in feminism, or should trans women set up there own spaces and become feminist? Probably the latter at least until we reach a stage where we all have equality. Should we have an active dialogue with men and with the transgenedered community, well of course but should trans people expect to take over feminism and impose themselves on women in women's spaces, be they hospitals, changing rooms or prisons, or meetings, no.

"maybe this is the way forward, for public spaces - to just totally degenderise"

Chibi - That asks me for example to ignore a lifetime of socialisation. My whole life I have been "taught" what is appropriate levels of nudity in different situations in front of those with male genitalia.

I can't see why I and other biological women should be forced to deal with feeling very uncomfortable and try to overcome this. Thats not even mentioning abused woman for whom this may be triggering.

Having lived through an IRA bombing, I do not support them. I think they did some truly awful stuff, but I'm not naive enough to believe that the British government and unionists weren't as bad. The Irish situation is one created by a long and complex history. Its ironically something I've posted about and how I admire Colin Parry as a bridge builder. So thank you for reminding me of my own values...

Which is precisely why Sinn Fein is needed to be a political force and brought into the mainstream - to stop the violence and to condemn those extremist splinter IRA groups that continue to support violence and prejudice.

It is an example of how you have to look for ways to be inclusive rather than exclusive despite differences and beliefs. Its about challenging the idea of enemy and looking at people as people...