To all those people who have an issue with trans people - please read this

[enimmead]

This is from a transwoman who has been jailed for 41 months. A black transwoman in the USA. I don't know if she is guilty or not. She was at a bar when a bunch of thugs started harassing her. The fact that they had Neo Nazi links was inadmissable in court. A glass got broken and a fight broke out. Ce Ce has been found guilty of stabbing someone and killing him - 41 months in jail (don't worry, it's a male jail).

This is from her blog:

supportcece.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/as-long-as-we-live-in-fear-we-live-in-ignorance/

To the many of us who have struggled, being of the GLBTQ community, this is for you. To those who have triumphed over the idea of conforming to this fascist, hateful society, this is for you. But most importantly, this is for all of our loved ones who have become victims of hate crimes and domestic violence being of the GLBTQ community, specifically Trans men and women, who are singled out and have the highest percentage of victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. My love and prayers go out to the families and loved ones of those who have lost a friend, a brother or sister, a mother or father, an auntie, uncle or cousin, or a partner or spouse to this epidemic. To all those unfortunate cases, this is for you.

In the memories of those who we have lost, it is our duty to put an effort to make a change. We should not have to sit back in the fear of our own lives and well being, or the lives and well being of those we love and care for due to the hate that exist and threatens our safety. We should not have to mourn for the lives of the people we love and have lost due to hate and careless acts. We have to stand up against those who put us down and try to oppress us. We have to enlighten the neophobics of this world and to help them realize the vast and diverse world we live in. because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

I thank the lord everyday for keeping me here and giving me such a profound mouth and mind to share my experiences and the trials and tribulations I?ve overcame, because honestly, I never thought I would make it past my 16th birthday. To grow up and have that thought at a young age is unsettling. The thought or feeling of knowing or expecting that today could be my last day on earth, only because someone hates me for being the person I felt would make my life happiest, or for being in an abusive and controlling relationship with someone who has no regards or remorse as to how they treat their partner is an unsettling thought. But it?s more unsettling to know that this is our reality, and that these are the issues we have to face on a day-to-day basis. And even with all that we choose to live our lives, and to continue living them proudly with gumption, bravery, and love in our minds and hearts. I know I still have faith in people, and am willing to make a change if they are willing as well.

We all grow up in different communities, with different social categorizations, but when it comes to being GLBTQ, sometimes we?re excluded and put into a category of it?s own, that is demeaning and belittling, and that no matter where you are we are singled out. I grew up in a community that was predominately African-American people. And with the fact of me just being a minority in this society was bad, being African American and trans is an ultimate challenge. I can remember having loaded guns being put to my head and being beat until bloody. Or walking downs the street and being yelled ? a faggot?. I thought because of their ignorance I decided to change my surroundings. So I moved to a suburban community, which were predominately white people. Then, I remember people grabbing their purses and children, like I was a thief and was going to steal their money and kids, and to still be yelled ?queer? or ?faggot?, which made me feel upset and that my efforts of leaving one community to another, went without victory. Also being a victim of domestic violence was also an issue that I had to deal with in my early teenage years. And fortunately I got out of that situation.

The point I was trying to make was that no matter where you go, or community you live in, people will continue to discriminate. And as long as we do not stand up for our equality, we allow them to have the upper hand against us. We allow for them to feel that?s its okay to verbally and physically attack us. And I feel that it is our duty to give these people the awareness and education about whom we truly are, and not whom they assume we are. We have to make sure that we won?t lose any more of our loved ones due to hate crimes and domestic violence. These problems are often over-looked when it comes to GLBTQ people because people feel that it isn?t as important if it happened to a straight person. Which is ironic because these problems affect us disproportionately. I feel that it is our duty to change the minds of those neophobics, because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance.

We have to be the matriarchs of this society. To start teaching our younger generations about hate, and why it?s so important not to hate. We have to end the bullying and harassment in our school systems. To organize more community actions and awareness about hate crimes and how to stop them from happening. We need to be leaders and role models for all to learn from. And from that we would be able to help and comfort someone who is unsure about his or her own sexual identity and preference. We will be able to eliminate people?s fears of being victims of hate crimes and domestic violence. To help someone to accept and be comfortable as whomever they choose to be, with no judgments or stereotypic labels attached.

And to all my brothers and sisters of the GLBTQ community, this is for us all. This is for those who are still here, and for those who have passed. With love and determination we can be the leaders. We can make a change. Because, see, what people fail to realize is that, even through their hate, bigotry, conforming, and biased views and actions that are enforced upon us,? love is inevitable and overcomes any and all things. And as long as love is in our mind and hearts, it can show us, even in fear, how to be leaders and role models, to be the leaders to show how to overcome the hate and oppression. Love is powerful enough to change the hearts of the neophobics in this world. Because as long as [we] live in fear, [we] live in ignorance."

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There has been so much hatred and ignorance spouted on this forum and i think some people forget trans people are people who deserve our humanity and support, not our ill informed bile and bigotry. I have been shocked at the level of anger on this thread. I have friends who are trans and they just want to exist and be accepted as people. There are a minority of activists who affect what everyone else does.

You may not accept what they believe. You may not accept the terminology. But accept they are people who are just trying to survive in a very difficult world.

Umm, what difference would it make if my daughter saw a penis in a changing room to another wiman's vagina or breasts? I used to go swimming with my dad and have to use the men's changing room with him. It is not a sexual situation, you are getting changed to swim. Just as the trans person is doing. Her seeing a penis is not going to damage her for life, she has seen her dad's.

You're absolutely right Dittany, sorry.

I'm interested in the fact that women who commit any crime with any degree of violence are treated significantly harsher than a man who commits a similar crime. (by man I mean someone with XY chromosomes)

In the UK women who commit crimes including arson where no one was harmed are being diagnosed as having intractable personality disorders and sectioned under the mental health act. many of these women are survivors of childhood sexual and physical abuse inflicted upon them by male relatives. It is clear to me that both women's experiences, including early life experiences and their subsequent treatment later in life is very different to transgender people. In relation to early life experiences and the violence they may be subjected to, the way in which they react to oppression or violence and the way in which the legal system subsequently deals with them. Why? real women are not permitted to use any degree of violence either in defence or retribution, it is unacceptable to people who want to perpetuate ideas about gender and behaviour. However it seems perfectly permissable for a MtF trans gendered person to retaliate and even murder someone, because the justice system is patriarchal and serves the interests of men, does this mean that in the eyes of the law this person is still a man? The act of killing someone seems to equated with male behaviour and is only acceptable when men kill.

Women who have been sectioned and placed in female only hospitals, are usually victims of male violence, pimping, child abuse or domestic violence and there is a huge number of women in the prison system who probably wouldn't be there had it not been for male abuse, can we expect these women to share space with MtoF trans. I don't believe so.

Can I just agree that IRA , BNP , UDF ,are all scumbags .

No in fact I think they are all terrorists of various sort , some blow people up and shoot people because their victims are different ...some verbally abuse and target their victims because they are different or believe different things , or look different .

I get what dittany ment , why doesn't everyone ?

Do you see the pattern here ? ( because they are different )

Hmmm, who are you and why are you having a go at me. I don't even recognise your name.

Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

I have no words for that one.

And to push that metaphor a little bit more,

I think the divide between the two communities is massive with fundamental views on both sides and a lack of talking or understanding of how each group comes across.

The bridge - well it's at the initial stages with a few planks being built. Unfortunately it keeps getting attacked and building has to restart.

I think TBH people in the 2 communities need to be in the right frame of mind to want to have that bridge built.

OK - metaphor over. I hope some people on here, or any lurkers, have had their thoughts influenced. I hope some people in the trans community have had their thoughts influenced.

Why can't feminism centre the issues of women? Is a woman who chooses not to have children less likely to face discrimination so less "allowed" to be a feminist? If a trans is a very convincing woman and noone knows they are trans, don't they face the same prejudices?

realhousewife - If you don't see the value of any single sex spaces, then no you are not going to get my point. Although I suspect you were very young when in a men's changing room and not say a 13 year old girl.

Goth, I see your point.

Hmmm, what did you expect, classic response :)

Realhousewife ...I do not want my daughters ( or sons ) to see anyone's gentials except their own , until they are of an age when it is under mutual consent and their own choice.

I'd be horrified if they accidentally seen a penis ( or vagina or other ) in a changing room.

Such a thing as indecency laws you know . They are there to protect the innocent and keep them innocent . If you want an open kind of attitude to genitallia join a nudist camp.

Too many m's, sorry Hmm.

I could give you an answer, you are right dittany. But I don't think I need to, seeing as we both know why I highlighted that comment. I'm not stupid.

Can we not make this the "Dittany is a victim" show. You give as good as get and always have plenty of supporters.

There's only been a handful of people on here opposing the anti trans viewpoint, so you're hardly outnumbered.

You could extend the list IRA , BNP , UDF to include freedom fighters and any political dissidents and their supporters, any political movement not recognised by meaningful dialogue with the elite. That might include all revolutionaries, what about Che Guevara? Sometimes it has been necessary to use terror tactics, when those tactics are used against individuals rather than the political system, that is where it is wrong. Are people not supporting the Syrian opposition to Assad? If not, why not? and to say it is because you are a women would be just as bad as men telling women what is and what isn't seemingly feminine behaviour.

Fucking hell , the implication is surly not that transgender people want the right to wave their bits around in changing rooms ? In front of children .

That's crossing the line into something else ...and I don't think many trans would like that Realhousewife .

Of course I see the value of single sex places, places where only people who identify themselves as a specific gender can go. In a changing room, you are removing the issue, presumably, of sexual attraction? I should think it is highly unlikely the trans person is there for sexual gratification. Yes some may be attracted to females, but some females may be attracted to females, that is not the reason they are there. Socially, a female only space would also be suitable for a trans person as they are living as a woman. I wonder how many radfems would agree with men only spaces, such as bars, clubs, scouts etc. oh oops they don't really exist any more. I can see the value in single sex spaces, but I don't believe in exclusion on the grounds of sex or sexual orientation.

No, dittany, I dont forget - the big difference is I am and behave like a grown up, and don't report your various slurs toward me. ( though why you want to dredge up 'old stuff' is a bit odd. - do try to get over it, if you can.)

fwiw I don't do p/a - but my point remains, if you hand out stuff it will come back to you, so forget the 'victim' bleats. It's too pathetic.