Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

You're being very superficial kim. Being a woman isn't about what you look like, it's about physiology. We've covered all this in the passing stuff upthread.

"Do you think you can look like a woman but not be a woman? Because I do."

Yes, because clearly lots of trans people are working very hard at this.

"Do you think that if someone looked like a woman, then it might be handy to have ID that said "woman" even though they are not a woman?"

No of course not. Being a woman isn't "handy", it's a state of being. You can't just co-opt something that already belongs to other people and is fundamental to their reality at the most basic ontological level because it suits you and the way you look.

Society will never be at the stage of accepting feminine men if they just roll over and agree that someone who is feminine must be a woman. You need to fight this stereotyping. That's what we feminists do. We don't accept that woman = femininity. Nobody else should either.

For most trans it's about legitimacy. And the only route available is to attempt to conform to the 'opposite' end of the binary. Ridiculous hoop jumping.

I hope you are being deliberately disingenuous when you discuss trans as if their very existence is a deliberately patriarchal ploy to reinforce gendered behaviours and erase the true meaning of woman, Nyac, But somehow I doubt it.

Both trans and women are victims of the patriarchy. that is why they should join forces.

At the moment they have absolutely no choice except to conform to the trans institution as it stands, whatever their true feelings about their own individual identity.

It's all a crock of shit.

So both trans and women should be taking issue with the big daddy legal panel. And fighting for such ridiculous institutions to be scrapped. It can only possibly happen alongside the dismantling of the entire institution of gender though. Meanwhile, it's pretty much what we're all stuck with. And I wouldn't want it dismantled without some other form of protection for those in the 'no man's land' of gender.

Kim, as a slight aside, can you apply for the panel if you are still using your male identity when you see your son? I know someone who couldn't fully meet the 'living as a woman' requirement due to employment stuff, so was having to wait...

And yes, traditionally you gussy up and practise your high voice and walking in heels. Cos that's all a woman is.

You can dismantle the institution of gender madwoman, but sex will still exist, and so will women, so will men and so will intersex people. Those are all physical realities, not legal concepts or someone's strong feelings.

Yep. And that's just what I'd like to see. Where behaviour, dress, mannerisms, were equally applicable to either sex (and intersex). No pressure to conform at all.

Can't see it though, which is why it's necessary to protect the more vulnerable legally at the mo, be they women or trans.

You'd think that everyone affected would want to work together so that there's a hope of reality, though.

As for the deliberately disingenuous stuff, funnily enough I was thinking that perhaps you were being deliberately ignorant about this, but somehow I doubt it.

Could you explain how a legal sex change protects the vulnerable madwoman.

Touché.

But as I'm happy to chat to both radfems and trans, I like to think I'm pretty open to most possibilities.

Are you planning on applying to become legally recognised as a woman, Kim?

All this talk of "biological women", how should someone with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome identify? They have XY chromosomes but look female, are raised as female and may often not even discover their condition until they reach puberty.

Clearly it doesn't. They still get beaten up, raped and murdered. But in terms of employment and other boring stuff there is at least a framework designed to protect.

Like I said, it's all a crock of shit. I have no particular interest in laying out a 'why I think the current institution of trans is perfect in every way' speech, because it blatantly isn't true, and would get shredded in seconds.

But like I said, it's all we currently have, and does at least provide a safe and identifiable community for people affected. A bit like those women only spaces.

Female Assigned at Birth covers it Goth Anne.

But that's a bit of a red herring. We're not talking about people with intersex conditions, we're talking about males, some with penises and testes intact, demanding access to female only spaces and calling women who want these spaces bigots and worse for setting boundaries.

I think there perhaps should be a category trans then madwoman, that legally protects those feminine men who don't want to conform to society's gender norms. Rather than trying to shove them in the box women, which already has a prior meaning and is full of people with a human female reality that men can't share.

Quite. They know which hoops they have to jump through.

V sad.

I do think a lot of people get caught up in the whole trans scene too - in terms of the horrific money-making aspects. All designed to 'help' (and to a limited extent, do, in terms of learning to pass and potentially not get beaten up as much) but really just preying on the most vulnerable. Pretty awful, but doubtless a good money spinner. That further pushes the boundaries into fetish rather than any clear notion of body or gender dysphoria.

X post.

Disagree with the category thing, really. More categories would reinforce the boundaries we already have, rather than getting rid of them.

Why complicate it further? Why build more rigid structures which lead to more stereotyping? As you say, we already have sexes, in however many variations you want to count them.

Why would you want to reinforce difference, instead of promoting equality?

How did you get female on your passport without having to produce a female birth certificate?