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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Radfem2012 banning trans people

1000 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 26/05/2012 08:53

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 31/05/2012 19:43

I thought we were talking about radfem2012 Confused

You didn't specify what you were referring to.

WidowWadman · 31/05/2012 19:49

SQ - I was referring to the toilet discussion of the recent postings in this very thread, which was partly begun through that blog post.

I wasn't aware how short your attention span is.

SardineQueen · 31/05/2012 19:52

What you said didn't sound like it related to that post, which is why I was confused.

"I find it actually quite shocking that anyone feels entitled to ask someone else about the contents of their pants - yeah, I know it's going back to all that "trans don't pass thing" - but it's not unlikely for an xx woman to be asked whether she's got balls, should she happen to "not pass"."

Not unlikely to be asked by this one woman who was in a club you mean?

HotheadPaisan · 31/05/2012 19:52

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madwomanintheattic · 31/05/2012 20:26

Well, I kind of agree. Except that statistically (it looks like) trans women are more likely to be attacked by women than vice versa. Just as women are more likely to be attacked by men than vice versa. And trans are more likely to be attacked by men than vice versa. It's all political, isn't it? I know when I started a thread about a (male) colleague who had been attacked by his wife as I was finding it hard to understand why he was he was the one who had to leave the house (no refuges available for men locally) it didn't raise a lot of interest, it being a minority case and all.

So I guess that statistical likelihood does give import to some discussions and not others. (ordinarily). and I say that as someone who would rather eat her own toenails than ascribe to to quantitative methodology.

But it isn't about radfem 2012, per se. Which is clearly a minority interest.

SardineQueen · 31/05/2012 20:30

Incidentally as a blonde I have had an enormous amount of strangers asking me about the contents of my pants.

I understand that women with red hair get the same, um, attention.

kim147 · 31/05/2012 20:30

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kim147 · 31/05/2012 20:31

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HotheadPaisan · 31/05/2012 20:34

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madwomanintheattic · 31/05/2012 20:38

That's interesting hothead... Are you reading jenny Roberts to say that trans need to suck up not bein allowed in? Because my reading is that you will be welcomed into the community when and if you accept your different past and behave respectfully and responsibly...

V interesting.

madwomanintheattic · 31/05/2012 20:40
HotheadPaisan · 31/05/2012 20:42

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Beachcomber · 31/05/2012 20:43

OK Kim. But the fact is that some biological women wish to meet together with other biological women. They may wish to discuss how uneasy they feel about men attempting to become women.

I think they have the right to do that.

MTF transpeople just have to accept that.

I (mostly) agree with this from your link;

So what is the solution? Well, let's be clear on one thing from the start. As M-to-F transsexuals, we can never be real women. However distasteful we may find it, and however hard some transsexuals may argue against it, the inescapable fact is that we've grown up with gender privilege. We've been taught to compete, take power and demand what should be ours. And we've done it for so long that we don't even notice it happening. What's more, it's likely that the women we've known so far have been too sympathetic and made far too many allowances. No one has told us the way it is - not the doctors, not the psychiatrists, not the surgeons. "You want to be a woman? Fine! Take the tablets, wear a dress, and learn to use make-up". Nobody, but nobody, mentions women's politics, women's culture or letting go of male power. (How would they? With few exceptions the gender practitioners are almost exclusively male) So nobody prepares us. And when the 'rejection' comes it feels personal, hurtful and very, very scary. And sometimes we can react in the wrong ways.

But, however understandable it may be, demanding equal treatment is not acceptable - or productive. However strongly we may identify as women, as transsexuals we need to acknowledge that we are different. We don't know what it's like to grow up as a girl in a male dominated society, we'll never experience women's puberty and menopause, we can't conjure up the social experience of growing up female, or know what it's like to bleed. Of course we can approximate the physical shape and we may well consider that, inside, we feel the same as born-women feel. But, demonstrably - and however much we may wish otherwise - we cannot be the same. If we can learn to respect this difference openly, then we can embrace the solution that it offers.

HotheadPaisan · 31/05/2012 20:43

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HotheadPaisan · 31/05/2012 20:45

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kim147 · 31/05/2012 20:45

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kim147 · 31/05/2012 20:52

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madwomanintheattic · 31/05/2012 20:53

I always tend to forget, (it really wasn't a big thing), but I did get banned from a trans group once. Grin my male colleague was invited and asked to bring a colleague with him, but when the organiser found out the colleague was a woman, the entire invitation was withdrawn. So, I don't disagree. (I pondered it a bit, but it was no biggie really - I wondered whether they had originally assumed my colleague was either looking to transition or an admirer). And when I say 'I', only me as a woman, rather than me personally. I wasn't planning on making trouble or dictating the agenda or anything. Grin

I think the issue I have with trans being banned from feminist events is because I really believe that both groups have a serious beef with the patriarchy and would stand a far better chance in changing things together, rather than apart. I also don't like that the rationale for exclusion is just that they are trans, rather than any ideology or beef about privileged behaviour, or disruption. Just the fact they are trans.

I've been to conferences on masculinity where men and women have managed to discuss the least pleasant aspects of (some) male behaviour without too much barney. Admittedly largely academic and light on activism, but still getting it out there. It saddens me to see that potential useful discussion is being silenced. (and I lay the blame on both sides, not on any side in particular)

HotheadPaisan · 31/05/2012 21:00

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Beachcomber · 31/05/2012 21:00

madwoman I don't think MTF transpeople are not invited because they are trans. They are not invited because they are not biological women (it is a biological women's safe space event - men are not invited either).

madwomanintheattic · 31/05/2012 21:10

I know. And like I said, I don't disagree. Grin I don't have any particular issue with radfem 2012. It's more the general feel of radfem beliefs concerning trans that make me uncomfortable. That there isn't a will at all to sit down together and combine power. Radfem 2012 is but a mere symptom of that.

I could be completely wrong though. Maybe there is a whole host of radfem/trans joint activism that I don't know about...

Nyac · 31/05/2012 21:14

Why would radical feminists be sitting down with trans madwoman. Radical feminists identify the institution of trans as anti-woman and upholding the patriarchy.

It's like hoping that a bunch of socialists will make friends with business owners in order to overthrow capitalism. This is not how politics works.

Nyac · 31/05/2012 21:15

It's very simple. The idea that a woman is merely something a man feels he is is misogynistic, it harms women. Radical feminism stands against all misogyny.

HotheadPaisan · 31/05/2012 21:17

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Nyac · 31/05/2012 21:19

Patriarchy is not an enemy of trans. Patriarchy has just offered a whole lot of legal rights to trans over those of women, so we no longer exist legally any more.

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