Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

'When pressed further, the general response was that her speech could serve to promote attacks on trans people by rad fems. '

at the thought of rad fems going round attacking transpeople!

It is really bizarre.

I have a trans friend who gets harassed a lot in the street - when she's choosing clothes to wear for a night out she goes through a conscious process of 'Am I feeling emotionally robust enough to deal with the abuse/risk of violence tonight?' (not saying this is confined to transwomen).

I can only guess who the people are who shout stuff but I should think feminists of any description are absolutely the least likely people to be involved.

oops, should clarify with the clothes - I mean, she will get abused noticeably more in skirt and high heels than in flat shoes and jeans.

I agree Hothead.

Leaving aside questions about whether someone 'is' or 'isn't' a woman, I am interested in talking to transwomen that I can work with and fairly fed up with reading the rantings of the transactivists who I can't.

One of the transwomen who is very active on Twitter tweeted the other day that gender-differentiated behaviour starts from birth - she's clearly either not read Cordelia Fine or has a vested interest in ignoring it. I am never going to be able to work with people who argue that kind of thing, and likewise not with those who go around threatening violence or calling women cunts or those who put their own 'right' to admittance to female spaces above the needs of woman victims of abuse. And also not with the liberal feminists who think those things are ok.

Or Simon baron Cohen.

Did she mean that gender differentiated behaviour is encouraged from birth? That I would have no issue with. Or that different behaviour is ascribed a steretypical gender from birth? (which may be at odds with the sex?)

Quite. I remember one of the girls doing that too, as well as the boy. You'd be surprised how often you hear numpties explaining different personalities in babies away by sex though. Ooooooo, he feeds a lot. Those boys do that you know.

To clarify, I do see people making those comments with alarming frequency. Not that I believe it is right to do so. That I do have issue with.

That is interesting, kim. And reflects most of the mtf I know, to be fair. I'm lucky enough not to have experienced any confrontation with activists, just people who want to get along and have mutual understanding.

Could I point out that it is not the goal of radical feminism to find ways for women and MTF trans to live together. The goal of radical feminism is to liberate biological women from oppression by males. The institution of trans, which redefines the reality of womanhood out of existence, is part of that oppression.

kim physical attacks are not ok. I would say that the security guard should have evicted the attacker. O would say she let her own personal prejudices interfere with her work

But I agree with the sentiment; if you have a penis, you should use the men's toilets. And the security guard should be stamping out potential attacks by other men

How about lobbying for trans toilets? Shouldn't be too ominous for a peoples who have managed to get the Gender Wotsit Act passed

trans toilets would be dangerous,it would like having a sign saying"come and beat us up".trans people should be lobbying for the right to safetly go into mens toilets.better still trans people should be lobbying to take away this partriarchiac idea called trans and to able tolive in peace as the people they really are.trans harms everyone.but they have to fight and not expect others to fight their battle for them.they need to stop fighting amongst themselves first before this can happen.the answer is not trying to shut women up.

Most men's toilets are filled with women in clubs anyway, tbh.

The mtf's I know use the women's for the cubicles. More privacy and less chance of upset.

I still find the view that anyone with a penis/ still with a penis in a dress is threat and needs segregation slightly alarming.

Where's the point in having separate toilets for men and women anyway? If they're all cubicled it doesn't really matter much if they're mixed, surely?

Do stats say you are as likely or less likely to be attacked in a toilet by someone who is trans?

I'd really like to know the stats on that, as the whole thing about risk seems stupid, if there actually is a significantly less risk.

I can't say I've been in many toilets that don't have cubicles. I'd actually like to be educated on this one properly one way or the other, rather than have is constantly thrown up as a reason why mtf shouldn't use womens toilets.

The institution of trans, which redefines the reality of womanhood out of existence, is part of that oppression. Yes thats the aim of being trans. Really. Honestly.

I can only find reports of mtf trans being attacked by born women in public washrooms, tbh. Just a basic search, though.

Lots of v interesting blogs discussing trans phobia come up though.

Conversations in teh UK always seem to come back to public toilets.
I think we are obsessed with them

I find it actually quite shocking that anyone feels entitled to ask someone else about the contents of their pants - yeah, I know it's going back to all that "trans don't pass thing" - but it's not unlikely for an xx woman to be asked whether she's got balls, should she happen to "not pass".

Who is asking anyone anything

Kim, Do you remember this exchange we had yesterday?

Beachcomber Wed 30-May-12 22:13:04

Because she isn't a biological women - and because that counts for radical feminists.

She will be welcome at many other events that aren't poles apart from her politics/situation.

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kim147 Wed 30-May-12 22:15:41

@beachcomber

I'm not going to argue with that or ask you to justify that. It's interesting to know where radical feminists are coming from.

And yet today you are saying this;

kim147 Thu 31-May-12 13:27:15

And I thought that it was impossible to be a radical feminist and trans?

*"Because she isn't a biological women - and because that counts for radical feminists.

She will be welcome at many other events that aren't poles apart from her politics/situation."*

That was one of a few responses to why a transwoman who had transitioned when she was young, passed and was treated as a woman. Who had been raped. Who was sexually harassed. Who could not get up the ladder at work. Who worried about her weight. Who had so many of the issues facing "biological" women because everyone thought she was. That was the response to why she should not be invited.

You have said numerous times on this thread that you agree that MTF transpeople are not biological women. And yet here you put biological in inverted commas and imply that it is unfair for a MTF transperson to be excluded on the basis that she is not a biological women.

I never said that it was impossible for a transperson to be a radical feminist. I think the two are politically contradictory but not impossible.

Have you not read the blogpost Kim linked to in which a trans woman describes a (verbal) attack from a woman for wanting to go to the toilet?